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Hi Guys!
I'm new to WOFF and this is my fist campaign. It is july 1916 and I'm flying the Fokker EIII.
I know the Fokker E was known and feared for the fact that it had a forward firing gun when few planes were even armed and as soon as that changed it's hayday was over. So I'm fully expecting to be in the underdog position with superior planes like the Nieuport around.
But how the Fokker E handles in WOFF seems to me absolutely over the top. Whilst the rollrate is expectedly bad (wing warping and all that) shouldn't the rudder help at least a little?
The situation is so bad that switching direction from something thats a bit steeper than a very gentle turn will take ages. Banking at more than 40° is suicidal since the only way getting out of that is a dive. (If you don't have the altitude you have a problem)
Combine this with the very low speed of the Fokker E and you are not only at a distinct disadvantage against enemy fighters but absolutely at their mercy.
As already said: the Fokker E wasn't a very good plane. Once dedicated fighters started appearing on the allied side it was outclassed. But to that degree? As it is portrayed in WOFF it is an absolute death trap. In ROF flying the EIII against the DH2 and espacially the Nieuport was challenging but by no means impossible. In WOFF it is unless the AI makes a mistake or you get a very lucky shot off early.
Giving insult to injury my campaign doesn't give me anything the shoot at, which I would be able to shoot down. I have flown three missions now, all of which involved enemy Nieuport 11 and no two seaters.
Seeing the situation as pretty hopeless I tried switching squadrons in the hopes getting to fly a different plane. It is July 1916 afterall and the Halberstadt DII was introduced in June and the Fokker DIII in July respectively. But no luck. All squadrons all over the western front are equiped with Fokker E models.
Should I stick with the campaign flying it more as a test of survival until better planes come along or may that take ages?
I don't think better tactics (like boom and zoom) help here because each time I got into combat with the Nieuport in the campaign it had the clear energy advantage.
Also trying out boom and zoom tactics in quick missions helped, but not to the extend I hoped. Doing quasi Immelmanns sometimes works and often instead results in an uncontrolled stall in which you cannot control the direction in which you end up in.
What do you think about the performance of the EIII?
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Welcome.
The EIndecker is great at taking out poorly armed Be2's but not much else. The N11 and DH2 helped to stop the Fokker Scourge for good reason.
However, with practice you can learn to use other techniques to get around better in a fight, and avoid stalls. 3 Missions or 2 squadrons isn't exactly a great sample of the 100s of squads, regions, quality of pilots in the squadrons etc, or randomly generated missions there could be, together with the tons of customisation settings to make it more hectic or not (see Workshops). Don't engage unless you have the numbers or advantage for sure and use your ammo and gun advantage. Spray a few bullets at them.
I am sure others will chip in with their advice.
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I am sure others will chip in with their advice. Advice? Or just a sympathetic shoulder to cry on?  This has been something we have been struggling with, well, since long before BHaH2 was even a thing! First ChallengeStill, what advice to give? Flying against them, I can say that they can stay aloft going slower than I can easily manage. So getting Nupes and Aircos to overshoot you should be a regular strategy. Also, since the Einy struggles to pick up speed, you can dive on someone pretty safely. So try to get a hit or two on the enemy so that they dive away and then as they come around, dive on them for an attack and then extend away. Also, also, feel free to skip a long time between missions until something better comes along! 
Last edited by Rick_Rawlings; 01/02/25 09:23 PM.
The older I get, the more I realize I don't need to be Han, Luke or Leia. I'm just happy to be rebel scum...
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Advice on flying Eindeckers.
Who better an example than those two aces who pretty much defined what "ace" means today, Boelcke and Immelmann.
Gain height and keep it until you are ready to pounce.
Pick your fights very, very carefully. Bravery is a wonderful word...but get it wrong and the only people who will see it will be the ones reading your obituary. Attack hard and (as Rick states) fast and get the hell out of there as soon as you sense the situation is turning against you.
If you can control your eagerness to fight everything and appreciate that survival is not a weakness but the basic necessity to a long career. You have a chance.
Gute jagd
"A great deal of an aeroplane could be holed without affecting its ability to fly. Wings and fuselage could be—and often were—pierced in 50 places, missing the occupants by inches (blissfully unaware of how close it had come until they returned to base). Then the sailmaker would carefully cover each hole with a square inch of Irish linen frayed at the edges and with a brushful of dope make our aircraft 'serviceable' again within an hour."
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Hello You see CarolusMagnus, it all comes down to physics. The plane is completely suspended in it. And the simulation tries to keep up with it. The Fokker E is a machine with a rotary engine. This means that a large wooden propeller and its engine, a steel block of metal, are spinning in the front. Since it is of French origin, it spins to the right. This (physics, physics!) the entire plane wants to rotate to the left, around its axis. This is the so-called gyroscopic effect. * So if you want to turn RIGHT, the rotating mass opposes it. That is why, firstly, the turn is so wide (the so-called "Pope's turn"), and secondly, the engine hood lifts up. So you have to give full throttle and push the yoke away from you. * When turning LEFT, the natural tendency to rotate in this direction is even greater. The machine turns sharply, and on top of that, the engine hood drops down. So you have to be very careful not to cause a sudden skid to the left wing. So when turning to avoid a spin, the pilots of these machines would reduce the engine speed (less throttle) and pull the yoke towards themselves. This was a serious flaw of the Fokker. As the pilots recalled: - "The Halberstadter has very good advantages in flight - it flies itself. However, when sitting in a Fokker monoplane, you have to be careful all the time. This is more important than you might imagine, because in the Halberstadt, the pilot can even kneel (sic!) on the seat and watch the sky and the sky, constantly searching for the enemy. In the Fokker, you barely turn your head and everything immediately goes wrong."The reason for this was the scientifically called percentage weight of the propulsion system. This means that the plane was very delicate, of light construction, and the engine was quite heavy. Thus, it constituted a significant part of the weight of the entire structure. It threw this light plane around. The next fighters that were created, although also equipped with rotating rotary engines, did not have such a problem with this. They were not only heavier but had a different aerodynamic system - biplanes with a larger lifting surface. However, do you remember the phenomenon of "Camel":
- When turning to the right, the plane lowered its nose down, and when turning to the left - it lifted up. A turn to the right could be performed easier and faster, and to the left, opposite to the gyroscopic moment of the engine, was definitely more difficult. Often, 90-degree turns were faster to perform as a 270-degree turn in the opposite direction.
Due to these inconveniences, the plane gained a reputation among young pilots as a difficult and dangerous machine.All propeller planes struggle with this problem. Even those from World War II. Look at the plans (but accurate) of those fighters. Their vertical rudders are deflected by 1.5 degrees from the machine's axis. The Italians extended the left wing of their Macchi Mc 202 fighter by 20 cm so that the rotating propeller would not tilt the machine in that direction. As for your successes in RoF. You see, this oh-so-beautiful simulator has been officially closed. Its developers withdrew, and the fans followed them. They fly in the "Flyingt Circus". Because for years they failed to create a good model of Great War aircraft combat. Then (through the efforts of enthusiasts) patch 1.1 was released, improving the AI, another 1.2, and recently I found out that there is already 1.41. Supposedly it is better, but, as the interested party himself wrote - ..." although, as I had previously stated, it's not possible to bring the AI in RoF to the level of WoFF and First Eagles 2 - so it would require access to encrypted files and other things in RoF - which is impossible.Maybe someday... We keep our fingers crossed. If you feel like it, you can also quickly tame the Fokker in WoFF. Just click on Workshops/More/ Player Flight Model and here we go! Straight, like on a string. Without any shocks or vibrations. "You ask, you get it" is the motto of this team of programmers. But think about it. Because the basic feature of WoFF is the pursuit of realism, the atmosphere of those days. And that's why this #%&*$# Fokker shakes, throws itself and wriggles so much. Like a real whip!
Maybe this will help:
Success is never final
Failure is never fatal
The only thing that counts is the will to continue!
Gary Leonard Oldman
British actor, screenwriter, director and film producer.
Best regards * Halberstadt Fighters P M Grosch * Wikipedia
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So much valuable knowledge provided already! Just one further idea that might help: I suspect you are a little late to the so called "Fokker Scourge" party with your career. There are less juicy targets around and a lot more powerful allied fighters about by mid 1916. You might fare better by starting a career in the fall of 1915, flying an E1, and seeing if you can survive until better machines are issued. There are several squadrons you can join, but you'd need to give your pilot a reasonably advanced rank in order to get to fly the Fokkers. It's a good idea to review each mission afterwards to see what happened in and around your mission. You'll see what allied craft were up and about at the same time as you (even though you probably didn't see them!) which will help you with what to expect to encounter in your region.
I'm hoping we'll eventually see a mod with some early observation craft like the Farmans for the Eindeckers to feast on. Meantime, good luck!
System: AMD - Ryzen 7 7800X3D 8-Core - 16-Thread 4.2 GHz, MSI INSPIRE GeForce RTX 5070Ti, 16GB GDDR7 PCI Express 5.0 Graphics Card, G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB Series 64G RAM, Dell triple 27",TrackIR5, HyperX Cloud 7.1 wireless headset, HF-8 haptic seat, Thrustmaster HOTAS.
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.... and since this is your first campaign, are you sure you've calibrated your joystick to be optimal? I had to do quite a bit of tweaking to my pitch and yaw sensitivities, as well as rudder settings. You might have to reduce yaw sensitivity and increase rudder sensitivity, from what you described Just a thought. Maybe fly some other planes to compare?
System: AMD - Ryzen 7 7800X3D 8-Core - 16-Thread 4.2 GHz, MSI INSPIRE GeForce RTX 5070Ti, 16GB GDDR7 PCI Express 5.0 Graphics Card, G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB Series 64G RAM, Dell triple 27",TrackIR5, HyperX Cloud 7.1 wireless headset, HF-8 haptic seat, Thrustmaster HOTAS.
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Thank you guys for the information and encouragement!  I flew two missions in the meantime ending up the same way as the first three: every time coming into contact with Nieuports without result. Our flight would attack, the Nieuports would attack and then the Nieuports would retreat leaving us in the dust. No losses sustained. (Maybe the Nieuports retreated because they spent their ammo?) Frustrated I let it be after that and did some flying circus instead. But I think I will give it another go now. Worst case scenario I will make it about survival until I can call myself pilot of an Halberstadt or Albatros.  @Taal: The info on RoF vs. WoFF is interesting. I heard the same critique about RoF back in the day but never knew what I should make out of it. Interestingly enough I feel quite the opposite: the flight models in WoFF are much more muted compared to RoF. Flying the Fokker Dr.I in RoF was wild. The gyroscopic effect would kick in very harshly and correct input via the pilot was necessary as to not put the plane into an immediate spin. There was a learning curve until I was able to fly it in a controled manner. In WoFF I feel like the gyroscopic effect is noticeable but almost (not quite) a non factor. You can just bank the plane wildly without any negative repercussions. Using appropriate rudder is only necessary to make the turn tighter or keep it sustainable for longer (keeping the nose on the horizon). The blip switch (or cutting throttle) I didn't find necessary here. - "The Halberstadter has very good advantages in flight - it flies itself. However, when sitting in a Fokker monoplane, you have to be careful all the time. This is more important than you might imagine, because in the Halberstadt, the pilot can even kneel (sic!) on the seat and watch the sky and the sky, constantly searching for the enemy. In the Fokker, you barely turn your head and everything immediately goes wrong." I noticed that flying in formation. You really need to be on top of things to keep that thing flying straight. Looking in another direction than at my flight leader would cause me to loose formation immeadiatly. This would speak for the FM in WoFF. although, as I had previously stated, it's not possible to bring the AI in RoF to the level of WoFF and First Eagles 2 - so it would require access to encrypted files and other things in RoF - which is impossible. Yeah. The predictable AI and the lacking campaign is what drove me from RoF (and Flying Circus) to WoFF. The AI in WoFF feels more random certainly (which is better than predictable for sure) but not necessarily logical. Maybe I just have to put more flight time into it than just the couple of hours I have now with quick missions and a little campaign flying. @VonS: The fact that the game is so easily modable is interesting. I feel tempted to fiddle around with the FM. However since I don't know how the real thing performed it feels like cheating to change the FM to something I would like the real thing to be. For now I will endure the Fokker E as it is. @HarryH: .... and since this is your first campaign, are you sure you've calibrated your joystick to be optimal? I had to do quite a bit of tweaking to my pitch and yaw sensitivities, as well as rudder settings. You might have to reduce yaw sensitivity and increase rudder sensitivity, from what you described Just a thought. Maybe fly some other planes to compare? Quite the opposite really. I put in some hard earned cash throughout the years and invested in Thrustmaster and Virpil. WINWING rudder pedals my girlfriend got me for christmas recently. In that regard I'm well equiped now. I had to kill all deadzones and scales set up in the game by default in order for it to feel just right and not needing to jank my joystick all over the place. However one problem remains: I don't seem to be able to kill the scale (and maybe deadzone?) on the bank axis. How do I know? Because looking down into the cockpit whilst banking from left to right reveals that the Stick gets stuck in the center position moving only slowly until finally jerking to the fully angled position even though I move my hand on the joystick steadily. Do you know what might cause this? The other axis work fine. These are my settings: Thank you again and I will report back with new findings!
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but you'd need to give your pilot a reasonably advanced rank in order to get to fly the Fokkers. You can actually override this now and give yourself any plane in your squadron with any rank! .... and since this is your first campaign, are you sure you've calibrated your joystick to be optimal? I had to do quite a bit of tweaking to my pitch and yaw sensitivities, as well as rudder settings. You might have to reduce yaw sensitivity and increase rudder sensitivity, from what you described Just a thought. Maybe fly some other planes to compare? This is a good point for all of us to remember, although CarolusMagnus (your Emperorship!)  seems to be on this, A WWI flight stick was about 12-18 inches long or more whereas our joysticks typically only have about 1-2 inches of throw, any input we give the plane will be greatly exaggerated and it's probably going to take some testing to get acceptable input curves...
The older I get, the more I realize I don't need to be Han, Luke or Leia. I'm just happy to be rebel scum...
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Thank you guys for the information and encouragement! Quite the opposite really. I put in some hard earned cash throughout the years and invested in Thrustmaster and Virpil. WINWING rudder pedals my girlfriend got me for christmas recently. In that regard I'm well equiped now. I had to kill all deadzones and scales set up in the game by default in order for it to feel just right and not needing to jank my joystick all over the place. However one problem remains: I don't seem to be able to kill the scale (and maybe deadzone?) on the bank axis. How do I know? Because looking down into the cockpit whilst banking from left to right reveals that the Stick gets stuck in the center position moving only slowly until finally jerking to the fully angled position even though I move my hand on the joystick steadily. Do you know what might cause this? The other axis work fine. These are my settings: Thank you again and I will report back with new findings! Have you checked to see if any of your other peripherals have had duplicates of the axis controls assigned to them? If I look down at my in-game stick it does not get stuck anywhere. Maybe you have two controllers fighting over the same axis?
System: AMD - Ryzen 7 7800X3D 8-Core - 16-Thread 4.2 GHz, MSI INSPIRE GeForce RTX 5070Ti, 16GB GDDR7 PCI Express 5.0 Graphics Card, G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB Series 64G RAM, Dell triple 27",TrackIR5, HyperX Cloud 7.1 wireless headset, HF-8 haptic seat, Thrustmaster HOTAS.
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@HarryH: I checked, and no. Strangely there isn't anything that is binded double. I also removed the additional y and x-axis binding for the gunner but to no result. I also checked joystick gremlin multiple times wether I added a response curve or wether something is doubled here, but nothing. Concerning my flight experience in the mean time: I flew another campaign mission with the same result as the first five: Contact wit enemy Nieuports (this time shortly after takeoff). This time with my squadmates disengaging after a short time. I fought on alone and managed to damage one Nieport which I then lost. The mission debrief said that some nieuports were destroyed but my kill wasn't granted due to lack of witnesses (no wonder when all my mates left me to it).  I think I could continue the campaign, but only because the AI is easy enough. I did quite a bit of testing in the quick fight missions and on ace difficulty I stand no chance against the Nieuport and almost no chance against the DH2. I switched planes to the Nieuport fought against the EIII and the reasons became obvious. The Nieuport is just much more easy to handle, quite a bit faster, has a much tighter turn and better roll rate. Only disadvantage is the Lewis gun with its very low ammo count (this might explain why in the campaign lots of times the Nieuports disengaged even though they had the upper hand). Also I cannot for the life of me figure out where the Lewis is shooting. It feels a bit like its not shooting straight but a little down. I then tried flying the fighter version of the BE2 against the EIII. The BE2 was well known as "Fokker fodder" because of its slow speed and more than sluggish turn. Ironically In game I couldn't feel any of that. It would turn just fine and would outturn the EIII with ease. I shot down the ace EIII each time without much effort. (Only difficulty was actually hitting it.) So I have to double down on my gut feeling: There definitely is something wrong with the flight model(s).
Two Problems with the Fokker:> When changing directions "quickly" (as if the Fokker could do that) and when trying to turn tightly (lol) you need all the control input there is. To me it feels like it causes a lot of drag which makes the plane slower, making the input even more ineffectual. The harder you fight it the more hopeless it becomes. Essentially you need to fly it like a bomber for the plane to remain "fast" and the control surfaces to remain "effective". This has forseeable consequences when meeting fighters. > The second problem is that the rudder looses its banking effect after a second or so of applying it. You still have your yawing effect wich tilts the plane out of its natural line of flight (causing lots of drag) but you don't get any more roll out of it. I found out that rocking the rudder back and forth helps a little. But this seems in no way realistic to me. "Fixing" the Fokker:> The rudder should be more effective at banking the plane. Most importantly this effect should be continous and not just "go away" after a second or two. (Why is that even the case? Is there an aerodynamic reason or is this just an issue with the game?) This change alone should enable flying the plane with more banking effectiveness, less banking input and thus lower drag and a higher speed. Changing direction should then be easier, the plane would remain more controlable in harsher banks or when damaged and continous turning would be able without reducing speed drastically doing so. @VonS: Is there a documentation on how to edit the FM? I would be intersted in fiddling with it a bit more in depth. Maybe shifting the center of mass of the rudder upwards would help increase its banking effect? Edit: I've found these lines in the aircraft.xfm:
<Layout length_ft="24" hTail_up_ft="0" hTail_fwd_ft="-16.1399999999999" vTail_up_ft="0" vTail_fwd_ft="-16.0599999999999" CoG_up_ft="0" CoG_fwd_ft="0.8">
vTail_up_ft: Is this the vertical position of the Rudder? If I understand ths correctly as of now the Rudder is perfectly in line with the CoG which would cause zero roll when engaging the rudder (explaining its ineffectiveness but not its initial torque in game).
<Rudder area_sqFt="4.74999999999998" limit_deg="25" effectiveness_frac="1.05" propEffect_frac="1.2"/>
<Yaw damping_frac="0.5" weathervane_frac="1.95" adverseYaw_frac="1.24" sideSlip_frac="0.3"/>
<Tuning torqueEffect_frac="1.25" pFactor_frac="1.25" gyroPitch_frac="1.25" gyroYaw_frac="1.25"/>
Rudder area and limit_deg are self explanatory. Is effectiveness a multiplyer for all the forces that enact on the rudder? I'm guessing the propEffect means the rpm-dependant force that the spiraling air from the propellor creates on the rudder? What is yaw damping? Does this effect how harshly the plane reacts to my yawing input? Weathervane is probable the effect the wind has on the rudder. (All oncoming wind? Meaning also the wind generated by moving? In that case this would directly influence how stable the plane flies.) Adversese yaw I wouldn't expect here and with the ailerons instead. What does this mean? The rudder shoud create yaw not adverse yaw. What does in this case sideSlip mean? Is this the amount of side slip the aircraft will experience before actually changing direction (yawing)? If I understand this correctly the last line of code does not concern the rudder but the propellor and engine and the forces they enact on the plane. Also there seem to be multiple instances of the same plane. What does that mean. How do they differ? Edit2: So I changed the vTail_up_ft to something insane like 10ft. This would mean that the rudder would sit up 3m above the CoG. However this didn't have any effect at all.  Did I miss something? Is there more to do then just change the aircraft.xfm file? I did this for all instances of the EIII.
Last edited by CarolusMagnus; 01/05/25 11:29 AM.
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Thanks VonS! Lots of useful information in there!  Some things I find quite weird: there are lots of values which are "double" so to speak. For example the propellor pitch and the propellor type. One would expect a prop geared for climbing to have less pitch and vice versa and thats it. I suspect that maybe some values are for display / information only and don't effect the flight model itself like climb times and horsepower which should be results of other values in the FM (horsepower being already determined by RPM and torque). Sadly no sign that the roll effect of the rudder is configurable.  However there is plenty of other stuff that seems promising. I think I will try out your setup too. Most changes seem sensible and should result in a much more engaging flight experience.
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I have got to admit that flying 'early' (as in '15 and '16) war fighters is my thing. And of those the Fokker E is the one I enjoy most.
It is also the most challenging, in itself to master well and as against the Allies from March '16 onwards.
The tactics I use are simple, in that they keep me alive. They don't always result in successful claims though. First off I rarely follow the set mission parameters, I find them too limiting and frankly wrong for the period. Whether flying alone or in a Kette, I gain as much altitude as possible and then loiter. If I/we run into either Dh2's or Nieuport 11/16's I'll try to get up sun. If I cannot gain a suitable position I'll simple move off and look elsewhere. If I do gain a good position I'll dive, shoot and (if I gained good hits) either perform an Immelmann for another attack; or simply keep diving away if I failed to hit the enemy.
It ain't brave nor knightly. but seems to work. You have to keep in mind that the 'E' is not a dogfighter. It is a hawk. Strike (and get very close so it is hard to miss) and run is my motto.
Very few 'E' pilots scored against the Dh2 or Nieuport 11/16.
Oswald Boelcke claimed 3 Nieuports (in May and June)
Kurt Wintgens claimed 1 Nieuport 16 in June
Otto Parschau claimed a Dh2 in June
Walter Hohndorf claimed 3 Nieuports (1 in Apr, 1 in June, 1 in July)
Rudolf Berthold claimed a Nieuport in August
Ernst von Althaus claimed a Nieuport in July.
Thats it (information from Sharks Amongst Minnows by Norman Franks). That gives some idea of the difficulty (and perhaps rarity) of engagements between the Fokker e and either the Dh2 or Nieuport fighters.
"Somewhere out there is page 6!"
"But Emillo you promised ....... it's postpone"
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@Carolus (and others), update to this thread -- please find a brief FM tweaking tutorial for the WoFF series now available in my public Sync account mods folder - access the folder by going to my main profile page on CombatAce and clicking on the "about me" tab while there. Once you access the mods folder, navigate to "03_WoFFnWoTRseriesMods_VonS/WoFFnWoTRreadMeSupplements." The FM tutorial is titled "VonSfmTweakingTutorialWoFFseries_READ_ME." The tutorial looks at the Fokk. E.III in the BH&H2 series, pre-OTT expansion. There are a total of 42 parameters indicated that I tweak. Values for tweaked parameters have already been changed from stock and may be used to "build" a modified set of 11 xfm files for the Fokk. E.III, if interested in going down the rabbit hole of FM tweaking. EDIT: have updated some time-to-alt values in the FM tutorial (Jan. 6, 2025). See Yavor Dinkov's chart over here (citing Leaman), in particular times to climb to 9, 10, 11, and 12 thousand feet, for the Fokk. E.III. Good flying to you (and tweaking) in the WoFF series,  I'd like to try your Fokker mod but when I try to access your mods folder I just get "password protected" on the browser tab and a blank page....
System: AMD - Ryzen 7 7800X3D 8-Core - 16-Thread 4.2 GHz, MSI INSPIRE GeForce RTX 5070Ti, 16GB GDDR7 PCI Express 5.0 Graphics Card, G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB Series 64G RAM, Dell triple 27",TrackIR5, HyperX Cloud 7.1 wireless headset, HF-8 haptic seat, Thrustmaster HOTAS.
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So I have tinkered with the FM a little. I took me a while, but I think I have a good guess now what most of the values do. @VonS documentation did help a lot, but I found out that damping actually works the opposite way. Higher values here result in less damping and lower values in more damping. For my EIII I couldn't find the perfect setup (one by which you could use the rudder to help banking) but I got close: First off: the main culprit isn't necessarily roll rate. Acutally I reduced it from 37 to 30 in the end to still have the aircraft feel realistic (or sluggish in that regard as the report suggested). The main culprit here is the "rollSpeed" which, as I guessed, influences at which speed the ailerons are most effective. Any speed below that the ailerons are completely uneffective causing the Fokker to be completely unmanouverable (litteraly). I set that quite low to 30mph. This is low enough so you are able to still control the roll of the aircraft well enough during 90% of your landing approach. The last 10% your aircraft needs to be straight and level already or you have a problem. Secondly damping is very important. This controls how quickly the roll gets up to its defined roll rate. It was tempting to reduce the damping a lot (by enlarging the number here), but that resulted in the aircraft to be to responsive which wouldn't be the case since wing warping took quite a bit of effort by the pilot. I only decreased damping slightly. It is now at 0.25. Instead I increased the effectiveness of the "ailerons". It sits now at 0.8. This causes the roll of the plane to fight external forces (torque of the engine, asymetric lift from damage, wind, etc.) better without giving it a great roll rate or responsive handling. The end result is still a dog of an airplane but one thats much safer to fly. I also did a lot of changes inspired by @VonS setup. Like making stuff like adverse yaw, p-factor, and the gyro effect of the engine more prominent. The plane now feels much more like a kite strapped to an engine and flying is a bit more engaging now. Edit: I might do a little documentation myself once I am sure I have all the values figured out correctly. I can upload my settings too if anyone is interested to try them out. @Bloom: I have got to admit that flying 'early' (as in '15 and '16) war fighters is my thing. And of those the Fokker E is the one I enjoy most. Yes, it certainly has an entirely different charme to it. The later planes are roller coasters, but the earlier ones are wild untamed horses. Very few 'E' pilots scored against the Dh2 or Nieuport 11/16.
Oswald Boelcke claimed 3 Nieuports (in May and June)
Kurt Wintgens claimed 1 Nieuport 16 in June
Otto Parschau claimed a Dh2 in June
Walter Hohndorf claimed 3 Nieuports (1 in Apr, 1 in June, 1 in July)
Rudolf Berthold claimed a Nieuport in August
Ernst von Althaus claimed a Nieuport in July.
Thats it (information from Sharks Amongst Minnows by Norman Franks). That gives some idea of the difficulty (and perhaps rarity) of engagements between the Fokker e and either the Dh2 or Nieuport fighters. thats interesting. I wonder how much of that had to do with the fact that engagements were rare and how much with the fact that the Fokker is inferior. I was always under the assumption that whilst the nieuport is no doubt the superior, the DH2 was seen more as a stop gap measure that was just about good enough to do the job. (Me interpreting that as the DH2 wasn't much better than the Fokker.) What your saying about how combat worked and that most engagements at that time fits with the memoirs of Ernst Udet I read. In his early months he would fly the Fokker E too, only writing about engaging two seaters if I remember correctly. Also mentioning how in the few cases he got to shot down planes in his early career they didn't see him coming. Sadly so far the campaign isn't representing that. I have flown 7 missions now. 6 of which involved only enemy Nieuports, 1 of which didn't involve any enemy planes. Is this normal?
Last edited by CarolusMagnus; 01/07/25 08:27 PM.
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,355 Likes: 1
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,355 Likes: 1 |
This is all really interesting, and has piqued my interest into stepping back into an Eindecker campaign. I will first explore some tweaks to the FM, based on VonS's work and your own work.
It's been some years since I last flew Eindeckers in a campaign, but I do recall a similar experience: too many opponents with superior machines and not enough encounters with 2-seaters. Maybe, as Boom suggests, ignore the mission directives and do more high altitude 'lone wolf' stuff, being more selective about engaging.
Last edited by HarryH; 01/08/25 03:03 AM.
System: AMD - Ryzen 7 7800X3D 8-Core - 16-Thread 4.2 GHz, MSI INSPIRE GeForce RTX 5070Ti, 16GB GDDR7 PCI Express 5.0 Graphics Card, G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB Series 64G RAM, Dell triple 27",TrackIR5, HyperX Cloud 7.1 wireless headset, HF-8 haptic seat, Thrustmaster HOTAS.
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,008 Likes: 13
WWI Flight Sims on a Mac Member
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WWI Flight Sims on a Mac Member
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,008 Likes: 13 |
@All who are reading this thread - I would echo Harry's suggestion to veer off of the strict path of mission guidelines when flying early war campaigns, or, if you want to stick with the flight plan, to follow it but within a wider radius - I remember from some of my early-war "casual campaigns" that I would often veer 10 miles left/right of suggested flight paths - increases chances that way of encountering enemy flights. Good early war campaigning to you,
Last edited by VonS; 03/12/26 06:46 AM. Reason: Edited post.
~ For my various FM/DM/AI/Tuner Mods for First Eagles 2, WoFF, RoF & WoTR, recommended is to check over this post. For my First Eagles 2 clips, go here. ~
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Joined: Dec 2024
Posts: 8 Likes: 1
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2024
Posts: 8 Likes: 1 |
I had a little bit of a breakthrough! One of my primary griefs with the plane (and WoFF in general) is the fact that the rudder is really ineffectual at yawing and banking the plane. All it does is cause the plane to sideslip. I tried everything. Playing around with the sideSlip_frac value, adverseYaw_frac and the position of the rudder/stabilizer itself. What I didn't do was play around with the size of the stabilizer. The area of the vertical stabilizer is the same as the rudder. On the Fokker E there is no vertical stabilizer (and no horizontal one either) just the rudder. I originally thought that the VStab area_sqFt Value incompasses both the area of the stabilizer and the rudder simultaneously. Therefore the valueas are equal. I cannot clarify wether that is true or not. Vanilla code:
<VStab span_ft="2.4" area_sqFt="4.75" sweep_deg="0"/>
<Rudder area_sqFt="4.75" limit_deg="25" effectiveness_frac="1.05" propEffect_frac="1.2"/>
<Yaw damping_frac="2.5" weathervane_frac="1.95" adverseYaw_frac="1.24" sideSlip_frac="0.3"/>
However this got me interested in playing with that value. I had a cunning theory why the rudder didn't behave like it should. It proved wrong in the end but if you're interested, or you can explain to me why its wrong, here it is: Every Surface that gets forces applied on them is listed in the XFM file. Thats the wings, the stabilizers and the controlsurfaces. Whats missing? The fuselage!
This would explain why using the rudder only causes the plane to sideslip and not actually properly yaw like it should or induce a bank which also should happen to a degree.
The reason it wouldn't happen is, that when there is no vertical stabilizer (like on the Fokker E) when the rudder is applied it only applies force to the plane for as long as it is out of line with the oncoming air.
Once the plane has settled at an angle where the air can flow by the rudder without pushing onto it, the rudder does not apply any more force to the plane. Thus the plane moves along like a crab.
In the real world this would not happen, because the rudder isn't the only surface that experiences airflow. There is also the side of the fuselage which would be turned by the rudder and in turn cause forces to be applied to the plane,
which would turn the plane continously.
-> My solution: If there is no fuselage area in the game I will use the vertical stabilizer to simulate it! But when enlarging the vertical stabilizer I found that it just dampened my rudder inputs (which is to be expected) but not much else.
I just removed the effective area of the vertical stabilizer entirely. This of course makes the plane more unstable in the yawing axis, which helps giving the rudder more authority, but apart from that I really don't know why this suddenly enabled the plane to actually properly continously yaw and even induce a continous bank while doing so. Only disadvantage that I found is that the plane has a tendency to loose altitude quicker when in a banking turn. But for now it seems to work fine.
The actual solution is to play around with the "weathervane_frac" value, which influences the induced roll of the rudder and the "sideSlip_frac" value which influences how much the plane side slips and how much the plane actually yaws instead. Lower "weathervane_frac" values will cause the plane to roll more while using rudder, higher values do the opposite. Higher "sideSlip_frac" values will cause the plane to yaw more instead of side slipping, lower values do the opposite. Here is my entire code for the Fokker EIII if anybody is interested (fixed):
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<XFM Date="2016/04/27 14:37:58.000Z">
<Perf maxSpeed_mph="87.0000000000003" rollRate_dps="36" rollSpeed_mph="50" maxGLoad="4.3" damageSpeed_mph="147.7" ceiling_ft="11499.9999999999" source="April & May1916 tests: Central Flying School: and National Physical Laboratory (scan from original Books). Speed from German Aircraft of the First World War. Prop s/b 251/210 Heine. theaerodrome." aiIcarus_heavy_ft="16757.7967806438" aiIcarus_light_ft="18178.9618965209" aiCeiling_heavy_ft="10498.687664042" aiCeiling_light_ft="10498.687664042" trainingLimit_ft="9842.51968503926">
<PerfPoint altitude_ft="3280.83989501308" climbTime_secs="0:05:40"/>
<PerfPoint altitude_ft="4921.2598425196" climbTime_secs="0:11:42"/>
<PerfPoint altitude_ft="6561.67979002623" climbTime_secs="0:15:00"/>
<PerfPoint altitude_ft="9842.51968503935" climbTime_secs="0:49:00"/>
<PerfPoint altitude_ft="10997.375328084" climbTime_secs="2:17:18"/>
</Perf>
<Theory Cdi="0.00989664628671244" Cd0="0.0977378908301315" CLmax="1.19237911940046" LDmax="5.69019354930514" propPitch_deg="20.4644159750838"/>
<Weight empty_lbs="878" maxPayload_lbs="0" maxAmmo_lbs="32.326380331016" guns_lbs="23.9999626690826"/>
<Power numEngines="1" rotaryEngine="y" powerPerEngine_hp="110" maxRPM="1300" fuelConsumption_frac="2.4" propDia_ft="8.2" propBlades="2" propGearRatio="1" propType="Average"/>
<Layout length_ft="24" hTail_up_ft="0" hTail_fwd_ft="-16.1399999999999" vTail_up_ft="0" vTail_fwd_ft="-16.0599999999999" CoG_up_ft="0" CoG_fwd_ft="0.8">
<Tank right_ft="0" up_ft="-1" fwd_ft="-3.4" wt_lbs="97.2"/>
<Tank right_ft="0" up_ft="0" fwd_ft="-0.199999999999999" wt_lbs="22.8"/>
<Load right_ft="0" up_ft="0.5" fwd_ft="-1.74999999999999" wt_lbs="180"/>
<Load right_ft="0" up_ft="0" fwd_ft="0" wt_lbs="108"/>
<Prop right_ft="0" up_ft="0" fwd_ft="4.15" clockwise="n"/>
</Layout>
<Wings nWings="Monoplane" MAC_ft="5.48760717291817" aspectRatio="5.75611045828433" thickWing="n" aoaZeroSpeed_mph="79.9999999999999">
<Main span_ft="31.2999999999999" area_sqFt="170.2" rootChord_ft="6.34" dihedral_deg="0" sweep_deg="0" up_ft="0.2" fwd_ft="1.8"/>
</Wings>
<Ailerons area_sqFt="18" upLimit_deg="15" downLimit_deg="15" effectiveness_frac="0.66162234898092"/>
<Roll damping_frac="0.3" aoaReduction_frac="0.12" dihedralEff_frac="1" stallRollOff_frac="-0.5" spinStability_frac="0.669999999999998"/>
<HStab span_ft="9.18" area_sqFt="18.46" sweep_deg="0" incidence_deg="0"/>
<Elevator area_sqFt="18.46" upLimit_deg="23" downLimit_deg="23" trimLimit_deg="10" effectiveness_frac="0.5" propEffect_frac="1.05"/>
<Pitch damping_frac="3.5"/>
<VStab span_ft="3" area_sqFt="4.75" sweep_deg="0"/>
<Rudder area_sqFt="4.75" limit_deg="25" effectiveness_frac="1.05" propEffect_frac="1.2"/>
<Yaw damping_frac="2.5" weathervane_frac="0.95" adverseYaw_frac="1.24" sideSlip_frac="2.3"/>
<Tuning torqueEffect_frac="1.25" pFactor_frac="1.25" gyroPitch_frac="1.25" gyroYaw_frac="1.25"/>
<Misc flapsMaxDefl_deg="0"/>
<PlayerExperience FF_stall="y" FFB_ElevatorForce="110" FFB_AileronForce="-104"/>
<LandingGear config="TailDragger">
<Gear function="Main" type="Wheel" pos_right_ft="3.62" pos_up_ft="-5.13" pos_fwd_ft="1.5" impactThreshold="1300" wheelRadius_ft="1.25" tailWheelLock="n" wheelBrakes_frac="0" staticComp_ft="0.1" compRatio="2.5" dampingRatio="0.575"/>
<Gear function="Tail" type="Skid" pos_right_ft="0" pos_up_ft="-1.95" pos_fwd_ft="-17.0999999999999" impactThreshold="1300" wheelRadius_ft="0.65" steerAngle_deg="180" tailWheelLock="n" staticComp_ft="0.15" compRatio="1.5" dampingRatio="0.6"/>
</LandingGear>
<ScrapePoints>
<Scrape sound="Fuselage" pos_right_ft="-1.413" pos_up_ft="1.198" pos_fwd_ft="1.73" impactThreshold="1100"/>
<Scrape sound="Fuselage" pos_right_ft="1.413" pos_up_ft="1.198" pos_fwd_ft="1.73" impactThreshold="1100"/>
<Scrape sound="Fuselage" pos_right_ft="-1.443" pos_up_ft="-0.828" pos_fwd_ft="1.73" impactThreshold="1100"/>
<Scrape sound="Fuselage" pos_right_ft="1.443" pos_up_ft="-0.828" pos_fwd_ft="1.73" impactThreshold="1100"/>
<Scrape sound="Tail" pos_right_ft="0" pos_up_ft="-0.929" pos_fwd_ft="-16.834" impactThreshold="1100"/>
<Scrape sound="Tail" pos_right_ft="0" pos_up_ft="1.63" pos_fwd_ft="-17.974" impactThreshold="900"/>
<Scrape sound="Fuselage" pos_right_ft="0" pos_up_ft="0" pos_fwd_ft="4.229" impactThreshold="900"/>
<Scrape sound="Aux1" pos_right_ft="0" pos_up_ft="-2.306" pos_fwd_ft="4.027" impactThreshold="900"/>
<Scrape sound="Fuselage" pos_right_ft="0" pos_up_ft="0" pos_fwd_ft="0" impactThreshold="1100"/>
<Scrape sound="Tail" pos_right_ft="4.614" pos_up_ft="-0.262" pos_fwd_ft="-18.008" impactThreshold="900"/>
<Scrape sound="Tail" pos_right_ft="-4.614" pos_up_ft="-0.262" pos_fwd_ft="-18.008" impactThreshold="900"/>
<Scrape sound="LeftWing" pos_right_ft="-15.884" pos_up_ft="-0.281" pos_fwd_ft="-4.147" impactThreshold="700"/>
<Scrape sound="RightWing" pos_right_ft="15.884" pos_up_ft="-0.281" pos_fwd_ft="-4.147" impactThreshold="700"/>
<Scrape sound="LeftWing" pos_right_ft="-13.127" pos_up_ft="-0.281" pos_fwd_ft="-4.547" impactThreshold="800"/>
<Scrape sound="RightWing" pos_right_ft="13.127" pos_up_ft="-0.281" pos_fwd_ft="-4.547" impactThreshold="800"/>
<Scrape sound="LeftWing" pos_right_ft="-13.672" pos_up_ft="0.259" pos_fwd_ft="1.823" impactThreshold="800"/>
<Scrape sound="RightWing" pos_right_ft="13.672" pos_up_ft="0.259" pos_fwd_ft="1.823" impactThreshold="800"/>
<Scrape sound="Fuselage" pos_right_ft="0" pos_up_ft="-2.501" pos_fwd_ft="1.20" impactThreshold="900"/>
</ScrapePoints>
</XFM>
Here a list of changes I made: 1) 100hp at 1200rpm -> 110hp at 1300rpm (The vanilla values correspond to the factory stated performance of the engine. In combat it was shown that the engine could be pushed a bit further. I thought the boost in horsepower doesn't hurt the plane.) 2) rollSpeed_mph = 77 -> 50 (lowered the airspeed at which the roll is responsive to prevent the aircraft from being absolutely unresponsive whilst flying under 100kph) 3) Roll damping_frac = 0.2 -> 0.3 (lowered the angular momentum of the plane a little, so it becomes a bit more responsive in the roll) 4) Roll aoaReduction_frac = 0.33 -> 0.12 (Lowered the reduction of the maximum angle of attack whilst in a bank. The plane is now less likely to stall during banking manouvers. I borrowed the value from the Nieuport 11. The Nieuport is still better in a turn though since it has better lift and speed.) 5) stallRollOff_frac = -1 -> -0.5 (Lowered the agressiveness of stalls. Dropping a wing is now less severe and saving the aircraft with quick input is possible.) 6) Pitch damping_frac = 1.5 -> 2.5 (The Fokker E was very responsive in the pitch axis (to the point new pilots had a problem with it) now this is better represented.) 8) Yaw damping_frac = 0.5 -> 2.5 (The Fokker E was very responsive in the yaw axis (to the point new pilots had a problem with it) now this is better represented.) 9) Yaw weathervane_frac = 1.95->0.95 (lower values cause the plane to roll more while using rudder) 10) Yaw sideSlip_frac = 0.3->2.3 (higher values cause the plane to sideslip less and yaw instead more -> the plane stops crabbing and actually changes direction) Thats all. I highlighted the "must have" changes with bold letters. They really are necessary in my oppinion and make the plane actually flyable and also more realistic. The others are more like a cherry on top if you like to have a bit more performance, but within reasonable standards.
Last edited by CarolusMagnus; 01/13/25 07:57 PM. Reason: fixed errors
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Joined: Dec 2024
Posts: 8 Likes: 1
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2024
Posts: 8 Likes: 1 |
I think I have goofed up a little.  Whilst it seemed like I fixed the yawing, flying down low watching the ground move by revealed that I made it worse. The plane is now able to fly completely sideways.  This actually makes sense concidering my theory above but is certainly not what I intended. However I found a proper solution this time (really): "sideSlip_frac" controls how the plane moves when applying rudder. Higher values will make the plane actually yaw, whilst lower values will cause the plane to sideslip instead. Vanilla values (0.3) cause it to just move like a crab and not turn at all. "weather_frac" on the other hand actually controls how much bank is induced through the rudder (yay!). Lower values here will cause the plane to roll more whilst applying rudder. With these values I got decent results: weathervane_frac="1.95->0.95" sideSlip_frac="0.3->2.3" Sorry for the premature "heureka", but I think I got it now and the values somewhat work like they indicate. Though I don't know why weathervane is called that. I will revise my previous post so there is less confusion.
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Joined: Dec 2024
Posts: 8 Likes: 1
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2024
Posts: 8 Likes: 1 |
@VonS: Where can I find your tweaks? I searched your public sync account, but only found the TM-tweak tutorial. Or do you mean the values you used there for the EII? If so, do you mean the actual values in the txt.file or the recomendations you outlined in red?
I'm currently creating an excel spreadsheat sorting all FM values with discriptions, native values, modded values and difference between the two in percent. That way I think it is easier to keep track of what one changed and by how far. I'm currently running a much more subtle and less intrusive setup for the EIII. Documenting the changes will help do the same for other aircraft. I noticed that the yaw unresponsiveness is a general problem. Also since I test flew the HotRod that is called the BE2 it itches me to kneecap that thing.
XFM modding has me hooked.
However I'm finding a lot of these values quite baffeling still, because they seem redundant. LDmax for exemple: if this really is wing loading, why do we have also the weight of the aircraft and its maximum Lift (CLmax) as values. Isn't wingloading a result of these two values? Same goes for maxSpeed_mph which should result from drag (Cd0) and the engine and propellor values (horsepower, max RPM, propellor size, prop pitch).
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J-B Weld
by Terl9999 - 10/02/26 11:54 PM
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HOA's
by Terl9999 - 09/18/26 04:12 AM
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![[Linked Image]](https://i.ibb.co/gF63bpF/Settings.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](https://i.ibb.co/1fXSqrN/Ordner.jpg)
