homepage Forums Air Combat & Civil Aviation IL-2: Great Battles IL-2: Great Battles - Extended Discussions In search of answers...

Yes folks the sky is falling here at simHQ

Oh.The.Humanity

I missed this hub bub...

Whether good intentioned or not, I do think that the comment regarding Jason displaying someone's credit card info shouldn't have been posted without proof. It's unnecessarily inflammatory. And quite frankly, with nothing to back it up it's libelous.


For fairness to Jason's character and for the good of SimHQ I think it should be removed until proof can be attained. Could Jason possibly seek a legal remedy to the attack? That's a pretty big claim to make and potentially damaging to his reputation.

is it me or does this seem to be striking at a few too many raw nerves? what's the big deal? lots of libellous and inflammatory stuff gets thrown about on the internet (even by lord Williams himself) but nobody usually demands proof.

lol indeed like the time he treated me like a troll(checking his list) in the tone of a post directed to me.

I know I've shared this story too many times, but it's really my only meaningful experience with BOS. And last, mind

As I have not received any further feedback from my inquiries to some folks who have been on here longer than I have, and Revvin has not produced any evidence to support the claim, the text has been deleted from the original post and also from subsequent quotes of it.

My apologies to the sub-forum for not picking up on the problem immediately. It would have been handled in the usual way had I noticed it then.

However, it sat there for about 5 days until some replies related to it appeared, which is when I began looking into it. The unusual circumstances lead me to utilize an atypical approach to dealing with it. Do not expect to see that become a regular practice.

Anybody looking for a precedent in all of this, here it is (emphasis added):



Carry on, folks.

No the sky is not falling, but it is that attitude which brings SHQ down to the level of some other Forums. So a person doesn't like someone on a Forum or a Dev, fine share your opinion, keep it clean and say what you will, but don't make a vague accusation such as this one unless you have indisputable proof. CyberKut does a good job modding here, but this breaks a main rule of SHQ's, and I am not quite sure how he interprets this statement differently? That is an honest question, not an accusation of wrong doing and it has no attitude attached.
What you and I agreed to abide by in these forums!

You agree that you will not use The Site to post or link any material that is deceptive and/or defamatory, abusive, hateful, harassing, obscene, discriminatory, profane, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or in violation of any law, license or copyright.

That statement is both deceptive, it leads people to believe that the statement is true from hearsay with no supporting evidence and it is defamatory because it demeans his character without any proof that the hearsay is true.




Here is the reason this is a big deal to me. This kind of, "I will throw this out there on the Net and Social Media and if enough people accept it(without checking the statements legitimacy) and populate it forward then it will be accepted as the Truth." Your opinion is your opinion and hearsay is hearsay but the Truth is the Truth. It is like the old saying,"Put up or Shut Up!" <----- This is not directed at anyone. In order for SHQ to maintain its fair open Forums integrity, it must weed out the BS baseless deceptive, defamatory and inflammatory statements and allow the Truth to be revealed so that it will maintain the Respect and integrity that they(SHQ Forum Mods) try to present here. Lowering your standards to what a lot of the other Forums allow and hiding behind the, " well it is the norm these days", is the new Main Stream Media and Social Media's way of influencing the masses without actually revealing the Truth and letting the masses decide for themselves. That is unacceptable to me, and that is why it is a big deal to me. Bongodriver and Bisher, I have no beef with you and I mean no disrespect in my statements above. I am merely addressing what you posted. I am not a Lord Williams fan, as you call himm, , but we all deserve a fair shake on SHQ. To me SHQ sets the standards for a good Forum, it does not follow the current norm of Forums integrity, or lack there of.
Revin, with all do respect, Please, support the statement you posted with some form of evidence, or else remove it. That is a request from me as a good standing member here , just as you are a good standing member here. No attitude is attached to any of my statements above.

S!Blade<><

P.S. Everything you read on the internet is not necessarily true. Bonjour!


Edit: I Digress Cyberkut!!! Should have F5 before I clicked submit.

Yes, I believe I've seen variations of "we're just asking a question!" on multiple major news channels as well.

We're not saying there's evidence! We're not saying there's proof! We're just asking the question that we've heard asked by unspecified people somewhere that may or may not be us! Did the President kill a homeless person while in college during a drunken binge, just to see if he could? We're just asking a question, we're not saying he did it!

Frankly they've done a great enough job sabotaging themselves that I don't see the need to bring in anything that can't be supported immediately. It's not like anyone's opinion is going to change at this point.



The Jedi Master

What did I supposedly do?

I have people telling me I have allegedly revealed someone's credit card info for nefarious purposes?

I'm really tired of this Jason bashing with no one really caring to send me an email or a PM or call me on the phone to discuss whatever the problem is. The comments on here are pretty out of control and when it's 100 against 1 it's a little unfair.

So now go ahead ask me any question regarding BOS or ROF history you want and I'll answer it, assuming it doesn't violate any confidentiality agreements I have or personal info. Some of you have a really warped sense of who I am and how I conduct my business affairs.

I'm not asking anyone to like me, but the comments I see here and are told about are beyond the pale in my opinion and the record needs to be corrected so we can deal with facts.

Jason

Would love to see a day when flight sim developers outnumber flight simmers 100 to1

Ill go.

How did 777 and 1c partnership start?

Were models from CoD and the "expansion" used in BoS/BoM?

And finally why does Loft have all the power to make decisons? Is he the final say on everything for BoS?

1. Someone at 1C talked to one of our guys in Moscow and asked if we were interested in making WW2 product since CLOD was not panning out and ROF was working and doing decent business. How exactly that transpired I do not know, I was not there and wasn't informed until conversations were further along.

2. From what I know and remember, some models were re-purposed and "prepared" for our engine. Many were edited and different textures made etc. We have said this on several occasion. It's no secret. Also, I do not know which were for BOS and if any are for BOM. These details are not important to me.

3. Because the board voted that way. They trust his judgement and he in many ways has earned that right due to his hard work and dedication to make ROF and keep the team afloat all these years. He is the final say on design issues at this time unless someone higher than him says no.

Jason

This is the biggest hogwash story I've ever heard. So you mean to tell me that someone at 1C let Ilya and crew spend millions creating all the planes, models, maps, objects, etc., for moscow. Then internally alpha tested it and have it only a few months from release, to just go one day, "well, we just figured out this isn't working out. Lets go to 777 and ask them instead to start all over??""

I guess it's pretty easy to say whatever you want when you know damn well the folks at Maddox can't even discuss the word IL2 in anything public without threat from the company you're partnered with. I'm sure you or Loft had nothing to do with that either right?

This is about as much of a fabrication as you saying Loft created the last patch for Clod. A certain TF member happened to work right next to the guy that actually created that patch btw. And it sure as heck wasn't Loft, a guy that knows absolutely nothing about Clod code.

Can I have a refund for my purchase of BoS Premium Edition?

Dev Diary #21 stands as an un-stricken fact to this day:

*****
How it works - (Part II)

"When you begin the Historical campaign you'll be prompted to choose which one of operation's phases you want to start in. If it's your first time in Battle of Stalingrad only the first phase will be available. If you've previously made progress in the campaign then each of the previous phases will be available so you're not limited to just the current phase. All operational phases are unique in regards of disposition of troops, defensive lines, weather conditions, aircraft in theatre and squadrons taking part in the action. Your progress to the next phases depends on successful completion of missions in each phase.

When you enter a phase you'll be asked to join a regiment. The regiments available vary from phase to phase the way it happened back then during Battle of Stalingrad: some squadrons leave, some come to the front lines, join other units or get renamed. Which regiment you choose defines which side you server with - Soviet Air force or German Luftwaffe. You'll be free to change sides before every mission. Thus, all your stats gathered in the game get bound to your account while specific data is split in two separate profiles - USSR and Germany.

Every regiment has a home base and specific aircraft in service. You can use any plane that your regiment has available. Remember, that a plane's design defines the type of mission you'll be offered to play. If you choose a fighter, ground attack or bomber the gameplay will be different which helps us bring you three different flight-sim experiences. The types of missions that are offered are very diverse and give you the freedom to choose one that suits you best. Some players prefer intense dogfights or ground assaults against armor or massive bombing raids hitting transportation lines or troops.

Also our mission generator pays attention to the phase you're playing - i.e. stage of the battle. For instance, Luftwaffe bombers fly more supply missions than bombing raids during the aerial bridge period, while Soviet fighters try to intercept them more often. Such a situation is drastically different from what happened in the air during earlier stages of the battle. Thus, the variety of mission types allows you to see the operation from all points of view.

Weather is taken into account as well. We've preset certain rules for weather in every phase. For instance, some periods will have pretty bad weather simply because that's how it was in real life according to history. Wind speed and direction is taken into account as well. The time when the mission starts will be set depending on the specific regiment you're playing for and the period of the phase.

Along with you and your AI controlled enemies, a whole bunch of other AI planes will be active in every mission. You may meet friendly or enemy units flying by, scouting, bombing or fighting each other. Both the air and ground will be filled with action and your mission won't be fought by you alone, but with friendly AI crews. Should you engage a hostile recon unit? Will you try to help a pair of friendlies outnumbered by an enemy squad? Can you protect a group of ground assault planes from a sudden attack? It is up to you to decide, but remember - you're on your own mission with its own priorities!"
*****

When Dev Diary #21 was not honored by 1CGS it changed the entire nature of BoS. Dev Diary #21 was the reason I bought BoS. If you did a search on words like "bait and switch," "duped," "bilked," and similar terms associated with BoS it would very likely be the number one complaint about doing business with 1CGS.

I don't know who's who's at 1CGS for sure, but being considered a principle of 1CGS you are first and foremost considered to be part of a con game by many BoS customers. And left as things stand this perception isn't going to go away.

You guys at 1CGS aren't stupid. You guys knew you took a dramatic turn in the direction of BoS that would leave many Early Access customers feeling like they had been conned. Why didn't 1CGS simply offer a refund to all Early Access customers at the point 1CGS decided to not honor Dev Diary #21?

I for one would have taken a refund and walked away with a few comments about how disappointed I was in the final direction of the BoS game design. Instead, 1CGS has left a large body of customers out there who, like me, feel "conned" and now one of the "con men" is standing in the room trying to be civil.

That's the perception, Jason. Like it or not, as associated with 1CGS, you are considered by many to be not just a game designer who made a game we don't like, but part of a con game. If you ever wonder "how on earth can this be such a big deal to these customers - its just a game." Its not the game, Jason, its the perceived con.

But maybe you're a victim as much as those of us who feel "conned." I've asked 1CGS for a refund twice (once sometime in October and once sometime in December). One request was replied to with a canned "So sorry, but no" answer, and on the second request I got no reply. Are you unable to authorize refunds on behalf of 1CGS?

You're not going to change my feeling of being conned until I get a refund (as then damages are repaired and I no longer have a dog in the hunt). But tell me something that makes me feel that you were not part of it. I have an open mind and I'm guessing what I've just written rings true with the feelings of many.

Bliss,

Somehow you see a conspiracy and lies in a simple business decision and facts. 1C had spent millions making CLOD. Oleg failed to get it built to completion and Ilya continued the work to try and finish it. It was a grand vision that was ultimately very buggy on release. Ilya was given a couple more years to get it right and it was not fixed to 1Cs satisfaction and after evaluating the cost vs. return the decision was made to pull the plug. Yes, sometimes in business a loss is a loss and you move on. 1C has a well known brand called IL-2 Sturmovik and they thought a new team could keep the sim genre going with a new team and different, but working engine. That's where we came in. I simply do not see what is so conspiratorial about that. If you have any proof something was done dirty handed please share your proof? A few screens of a new plane and a map do not make a functioning commercial product.

As far as the follow-on product is concerned from what I was told it too suffered problems and was way behind schedule. That's all I know about that topic.

It's not my place to comment on details I was not part of, but as far as Ilya not being able to say anything, I imagine he signed an agreement with 1C on his departure which I am sure involved a severance package of some sort. I do know that Ilya was offered a position with us and decided to go to DCS and do something different. Just like we offered Team Fusion an opportunity to work with us and which you also declined. Sometimes people choose to walk away from things.

Loft is a producer and manager and a good one from what I have seen in person. No one ever said he coded the patch. He is not a coder, but from what I know he came over the 1C office ahead of time to oversee a final official patch to CLOD and try make it perform better before the team was disbanded. From what I understand there was a triage of sorts and folks were assigned to do the necessary tasks to fix whatever was decided upon to fix. I wasn't there so I don't know the details, but knowing Loft he did his best to give CLOD users one last decent patch. It looks like it was a pretty good effort on that last patch. Then you guys did your thing and now its a pretty good product. And 1C has been nice enough not to interfere with your work even though you trash them all the time.

Jason

No.. You've yet to state the facts. 777 went to 1C 1st. That is a fact and you know it. I know it. And the folks from Maddox know it. You took advantage of a situation and with that got rights to the IL2 name that you always wanted for yourself. In the process you also forced those in Maddox to never be able to speak about the game they created ever again. I was told that was specifically because of you and Loft.

Noone is going to deny you're not a good politician or a salesman.



Funny, because Ilya was having a celebratory dinner with a current TF member because of how close it was to release and how happy he was with the progress (Alpha almost Beta state), when suddenly he gets a phone call saying he's been fired, and 777/1C members came and took everything out of the Maddox office in the same breath, even in such a haste they ended up ruining 1C's copy of the old IL2 master source disk. I guess that's just a complete conspiracy right? Just like Ilya trying to buy the Clod source code from 1C and you guys of course giving that a big no no. Oh, I understand your "business" practices alright.

If it was such a buggy mess, then why won't you sell it?



No he wasn't, and again you are wrong. A TF member was there eating dinner with him when he was fired over the phone and it was all shut down.



No, this is exactly what you said:



I also know for a fact, that you wanted to stop that patch from ever hitting public consumption. That patch was pushed out by someone that didn't even have a job, just to try and help out with what last minute stuff he could do. Loft OVERSAW NOTHING OF IT. To say anything otherwise is a complete fabrication and a lie.

As far as "letting us continue", that just further shows your entire business ethics towards the flight simmer. I have numerous emails, let alone forum postings by 1C employees, to game developers that all stated the game was made to be modded and that we could have at it. After all the success and longevity of IL2 due to modding and community created content, the new IL2 was actually designed around that in many ways. But by all means, go after TF with your veiled threats. It'd be fun showing the court all the features written on back of the DVD that are simply not there or don't work at all. That and all the emails from company guys you work for would probably not work out the best for you. But try it if you want. I can't wait for discovery

And we had absolutely no interest working on your game engine for you. It can't support what 2001 IL2FB does let alone hold a candle to IL2COD. You have 48 player servers? In 2015? What?

We instead offered to fix Clod and create content for free, for which you could sell to make a free and easy profit, which you declined. Says quite a bit about your "care for the flight simmer".

Was this offer to 1C or 777?

One of my hopes back at banana after the repeated failures of patches reintoducing bugs most often (and banjo postings) was 1C to let the code base over to 777, instead I got this RoF1943 which I, by God, tried to like.

IF all above is true, my hopes for Dover in 777 hands was probably in vain - why oh why didn't TF show up earlier and hired into Maddox (shaking fist up into the sun strucken clouds here).



Very interesting info showing up here but leaning towards word-against-word, is there any possibility to back some things up? (I know that's a difficult one regarding these things being said)

1C/777/1CGS/UBI you name it.



Because everyone figured it was just like the 1st IL2. You don't get your return on investment back until your game is polished, and several sequels have been released. If your game engine is robust and polished, then it's up to 3d artists / modelers to create DLC in the form of additional content (sequels etc.) to sell. And of course, just like the original IL2, that would snowball into the foundation of something great.

I don't think anyone ever planned on the secret background dealings going on to kill it. But at the same token, I'm sure those that did are expected to produce and make a profit. Judging by their forum and game activity, I'm thinking it's not exactly doing as well as they hoped.

I just wonder if any of true decision makers are having any second thoughts on the decision to box up one of the most ambitious flight sim software ever created. It really is unbelievable the labor of love that went into creating it. But the past is the past. Thankfully it's enjoyable and very playable now.

Umm... we didn't even want the rights to the IL-2 name. We wanted to make it ROF:WW2 or something. Il-2 had a lot of baggage, especially after CLOD and the politics of that community. But 1C was bringing the investment for an Eastern Front product so we had to use IL-2. Notice we abandoned banana forum and started our own. This is a by product of that discussion. And 1C was going to disband the team regardless if we existed or not and I had absolutely no role in any of that. You keep saying I am involved somehow in the demise of CLOD. The only people responsible for that is the previous team. Whomever told you otherwise does not know what they are talking about when it comes to me.



Whether Ilya felt good or not doesn't mean 1C felt that way. Whether he was fired over the phone or not doesn't mean additional conversations with the new management couldn't have taken place. Your comment doesn't prove anything about the state of the product. Whether 1C wanted to sell the source to CLOD or not is out of my hands and that's news to me. And you forget I lobbied 1C to allow you guys to work with the source, not my fault 1C isn't interested. But after the stunts you have pulled in smearing my name and showing a lack of respect to someone who has tried to help you. That's never going to happen again. When you don't get your way all you seem to know is attack, attack, attack. It's a shame really considering the talent of the rest of your team.

And the transition to the new team took weeks, not hours.



Again, just because a phone call was made doesn't mean additional conversations couldn't have taken place. Again, we're not responsible for Oleg and Ilya's disappointments.




Nothing I said is wrong. He oversaw the last patch.



I have nothing to do with 1C's decisions about CLOD. When are you going to understand that???? Seriously, one minute I'm the puppet master and clever thief who stole IL-2 brand the next I'm a stooge. Make up your mind please. Why you have been attacking the one guy in this company who ever lifted a finger to try and help you is beyond me. You have taken your disappointment about a game and spent all this time and energy attacking a guy who likes what your team has done, but because some business partners I have 6K miles away won't let you do what you want you go out of your way to attack me. All I am trying to do is set the record straight because you keep assaulting my reputation and saying things that I know to be untrue about what happened 2 and a half years ago. It's over man. Move on to other things.



If you're so smart and we're so dumb, build your own engine.



Again, not my call. See my earlier answer which you never seem to acknowledge. And do you really expect 1C to work with someone who attacks them all the time??? And my history working for the benefit of the "flight simmer" speaks for itself.

So that's it for answering Bliss's questions. Time for others to ask questions if they wish.

Jason

Your making a leap from design change to a con. To con people we would have had that intent that saying one thing would cause a result with no intention of fulfilling the earlier comment and and that's not what happened here. You simply didn't like the change Loft made and neither did I frankly, but it's not a con. We warned everyone during early access that things may change and the EULA allowed for changes. There was no con, just a change some didn't like. It's as simple as that. We also said no refund from the start because early access is a dicey thing and we can't worry about refunds if we make a bad decision.

And I am not the final say on refunds. Moscow office is. I forward all refund requests to them.

Maybe the game design will change at some point to something more along the lines of what you want. Zak mentioned something recently, but I haven't been briefed on it yet.

It's no secret I would like to have something like the ROF Career, that's why I have been trying to adapt the PWCG app to BOS to at least give role-players something they like.

Jason

Oh I think they know plenty of what they are talking about when it comes to you. If you wanted to produce ROF:WWII you would have done just that, but the only way you knew you could pull that off is by getting rid of the only competition you had in the 1st place. Why did you need 1C to be able to create 3d models and content for a game engine you were already using for ROF?




So now you're saying that additional talks might have taken place? Pretty funny considered you said earlier he was offered a job.

And you've never tried to help us in anyway. You've made multiple threats aimed at us. You even did so in a dev diary. Don't even think about talking about respect when you show none in the 1st place.




And once again, you said he was offered a job. Now you're saying an additional phone call might have taken place?






How exactly did he oversee the last patch when the guy that pushed it out did so before the doors were shut down and it was still Maddox? And he oversaw a patch for a game he has no idea of the code in the first place? That's pretty neat!




You haven't tried to help one iota. The only thing you tried to do was get TF to work on your game. The same thing you tried to do with TD. How is that helping us? And if you hadn't of made the comment in the dev diary, we would have never talked with you in the 1st place. We already knew what the outcome would be judging by your snarky attempt at an insult in the 1st place.



All this time and energy attacking you? What? I don't know what world you live in, but if you act like an ass to people, let alone personally attack other fellow flight simmers, some of us say something about it. You have done that to too many people to count just on this forum alone. Some people deserve a good taste of their own medicine from time to time. I'm a no BS person. I don't sugar coat. You can take that however you want. But trust me in saying, if I was "attacking" you, you would know it.



Who said you're dumb? Who said I'm smart? But honestly, you don't think having a player limit of 48 people in a server in a DX9 game in 2015 isn't disappointing? This has always been your problem since I've ever seen your name grace flight sim forums. Any time someone criticizes, you go out and insult people. Perhaps realize, people criticize because they actually want that particular issue fixed. Throwing the toys around, yelling at people, deleting their threads etc., is the wrong approach.




This is a pretty ironic statement. Just recently you went into a cussing tirade on SimHq cursing out a fellow flight simmer that didn't agree with you. The last thing you should ever do is try to go the "I'm being attacked" defense. You bring all that on yourself.

Edit: Just a reminder of how you treat others here.


Edit: Placed screenshot under spoiler tags