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@csThor: I'm sure everyone will agree that your contributions are a huge benefit to the whole community. I appreciate them very much. I don't want to defend luthier, but one can surmise that he is in dire straits now with trying to repair some fundamental flaws in the game engine. It's like he was in charge of designing and building a ship, and after the ship was launched with a design flaw in the hull, it is leaking badly. Now he has the unenviable task of redesigning the hull and rebuilding it while the ship is underway. Under these circumstances it's quite understandable that we don't hear much from luthier.
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Thx for your comment Jason, interesting read.
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Points 1-5 in the list of errors are the same stuff I have been saying since the very beginning. No information, no media (i.e. screenshots and game videos), no press, no promotion, Ubisoft 11th hour publisher, 11th and a half hour announcement of release date. All that sums to an unfunded, unfinished POS, which is what I have been saying from the very start.
These are the things you don't do if your game is ready to go and well-funded. Like I said, most of you don't know jack about the video game industry whereas the commentator obviously knows his from a hole in the ground.
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Thor, it seems your main compliant against CoD has always been lack of ability for TD to influence the game. It should never have been released with the IL-2 title, and I hope its years before MG abandon it to TD.
I love having historically correct in the game, but right now, the flaws are much greater than unit logo's and correct planes.
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WTF were they thinking. Failure to prepare is preparing to fail. The project leads, or those responsible for development, QA, and PR, deserve to be out of a job. I work in the QA field and the only times I have seen stuff like this happen is NOT when QA fails at their job, but rather when QA is ignored in favor of 'time-to-market". Do you honestly think QA would be so blind to miss all this stuff?
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Thor, it seems your main compliant against CoD has always been lack of ability for TD to influence the game. It should never have been released with the IL-2 title, and I hope its years before MG abandon it to TD.
I love having historically correct in the game, but right now, the flaws are much greater than unit logo's and correct planes. No, you're reading this totally wrong. I started researching for what was then SoW-BoB and what is now CloD well before Daidalos was even created, in fact years before I had even heard of them. My work for TD is totally unrelated to what I was talking about in my previous post. TD is strictly Il-2:1946 and will remain so. And as to flaws ... I agree, the engine has more serious issues than the unit errors, but I can provide the necessary information and graphic files to fix them whereas I cannot help with fixing fundamental coding issues. And the unit situation was already one of my main peeves with Il-2:1946 since I value a decidedly historical style of playing ... to me the right units with the right planes wearing the right livery are very important to my personal immersion. 
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csThor, I agree that it would be nice - as a contributor - to hear a word from Luthier, or someone delegated to reply, about one's contributions. I sent them photo documentation they had requested on the Tiger Moth and Gloster Meteor (!) and never heard from them...
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There is obviously a lot that went FUBAR during CloD development and not much is to blame on Ilya - so far I agree with Jason. But: When Oleg was still there external input was valued and communication - even the tiniest bit of it - was ensured. I, personally, spent over two years researching and creating the german unit list and their emblems and markings and I was told the Maddox Games coding gurs were both pleased at the load of information and dismayed (since it meant more work for them  ). But since Oleg departed there is a silence far more complete than in space, in fact there's more light coming out of a black hole than info coming from Maddox Games. I don't know what the issue is - I was given an internal document by Ilya shortly after release to fix a number of minor issues with the german unit list and the emblems and markings, but despite me sending the docs and links five times from my mail account and trying to get it across via three different people there has not been the slightest indication Maddox Games has received them. And after so much time (I sent it in April) I have trouble believing that it never arrived - I am actually beginning to think Ilya does not care about external input. Other people have reported the same, some even complained about a new somewhat contemptous attitude towards externals. Jason - I know you're good friends with Ilya, but I have to say that during the last 3 months he has managed to alienate a number of people who spent considerable time (and in cases considerable money) to produce content for CloD and who are now suddenly in the dark whether all that effort was wasted or not. Jason, if you really have a solid friendship with Ilya I really ask you to tell him what is brewing in the community. A lot of people who were quite prepared to cut MG a lot of slack are pretty fed up and angry right now. And I am one of them. I would tend to agree. I am also one of those guys (I delivered to MG some documentation about the French/German airfields, hangars, towns, harbors and railways), and I am not angry, but a bit disappointed, as maybe 5% of what I sent has really be used so far, and with errors, due to lack of feedback from developers toward myself). I understand very well that more pressing issues need to be solved, and I am still willing to help when the time is right, even to do some stuff myself for Luthier's sake. I suspect I will have to wait a good while, but if in the end it can work out, there will not be only the insignia which will be historical :-) )
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I'm sorry, but I need to say something because your comments are not correct.
1.) Luthier is a long-time friend of mine and you are smearing him with no proof or knowledge of what really happened that caused the less than stellar release of CLOD. Oleg didn't hand Luthier anything. Luthier was asked by 1C to try to finish the project after Oleg was, depending who you talk to, relieved of duty by 1C or he quit 1C. You make the call. Luthier is making the best of a bad situation and he is a good guy and from what I can tell a good manager. My point is you can't blame him for the release or bad decisions that were forced upon him by others. He was given 12 months to correct 6 years of bad decisions made by others. A good analogy is blaming me for every decision made regarding ROF before my company took over. Coming from someone who had to take over a not so great situation I know what he is going through.
2.) Again, you see to blame Ubi for all this. Why don't you ask 1C if $8 million and 7 years was enough time and money for a team to eventually be held accountable for their work and produce a product? Ubi is not quite the monster they are being portrayed as. Again, see my comments about Oleg's departure. Only Duke Nukem' can have a never ending dev cycle and hell even that got released eventually. Bringing Oleg back isn't going to solve anything. 1C loves when you blame Ubi. 1C was the day to day manager and owners of IL-2 franchise, not to the mention the primary funding source so why aren't they held accountable? Some of you hold Oleg and 1C up like some sort of gods and people who can do no wrong which is foolish.
I'm not going to say anymore, but what you've said about Luthier isn't fair to him. There is no need to be an Oleg or 1C apologist.
Jason
given your commercial link with luthier and your stated personal friendship, i can only interpret what you say as being aimed at minimizing blame for luthier, while shifting all the blame to oleg ( who isnt present to defend himself). the only new fact you are bringing is the 8 million figure, all the rest is speculation you say that luthier was handed the unfinished project 1 yr before release, which takes us to the point in mid 2009 when oleg was posting at 1C that he had a fixed release date of november 2010. the project then slipped pasted this nov/dec 2010 date and was then eventually released early in 2011 so when ubi (and/or 1c) put their foot down and gave the the uncompromising ultimatum of a fixed release date 1yr ahead, how did oleg react ? [admin edit] likely some years will go by before we find out, but that is much more likely then your spin of putting the sole blame on oleg. another piece of the puzzle we are missing is what exactly happened mid development that caused the lost 2 or 3 critical years which became the Achilles heel in this whole CoD project ? time wise this is the period we know oleg fired some people, or some left on their own (taking part of the code ?), oleg restarted the whole gfx/game engine from scratch (and coincidently the RoF project made a miraculous giant leap forward, which is unexplained to this day). are all those facts linked, its all speculation at this stage, but those missing years caused the whole delay mess that landed us where we are now. additionally, with luthier being oleg's trusted sidekick during earlier years of il2 development and with the 2 being close friends, AND with luthier being asked by oleg to help finish CoD a couple of years ago (when luthier paused his own korea project), when oleg then suddenly left when ubi/1c wouldnt give him more time, luthier would have been about the only logical person the project could have been transferred to (inside their existing team). now the question that arises is, knowing the various good skills and contributions luthier has made to the il2 series, did/does luthier have the project management skills to pull of what oleg knew could not be done to oleg's exacting levels of quality ? luthier took on an unthankful task to try and finish it, and tried to do so under very difficult circumstances no doubt, but he didn not success, its a giant mess. to try and blame oleg for those failures while he wasnt managing it anymore is not very rational Admin Edit - Don't go there rootango.
Be advised, we got zips in the wire
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Let's keep the comments on topic folks. Please move the other discussion(s) here: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3376372/1.html
Last edited by EinsteinEP; 08/28/11 06:54 PM. Reason: updated to proper thread in forum
Shoot to Kill.
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I couldn't have said that better myself.. (The article...)
I'm sorry, but I need to say something because your comments are not correct.
1.) Luthier is a long-time friend of mine and you are smearing him with no proof or knowledge of what really happened that caused the less than stellar release of CLOD. Oleg didn't hand Luthier anything. Luthier was asked by 1C to try to finish the project after Oleg was, depending who you talk to, relieved of duty by 1C or he quit 1C. You make the call. Luthier is making the best of a bad situation and he is a good guy and from what I can tell a good manager. My point is you can't blame him for the release or bad decisions that were forced upon him by others. He was given 12 months to correct 6 years of bad decisions made by others. A good analogy is blaming me for every decision made regarding ROF before my company took over. Coming from someone who had to take over a not so great situation I know what he is going through.
2.) Again, you see to blame Ubi for all this. Why don't you ask 1C if $8 million and 7 years was enough time and money for a team to eventually be held accountable for their work and produce a product? Ubi is not quite the monster they are being portrayed as. Again, see my comments about Oleg's departure. Only Duke Nukem' can have a never ending dev cycle and hell even that got released eventually. Bringing Oleg back isn't going to solve anything. 1C loves when you blame Ubi. 1C was the day to day manager and owners of IL-2 franchise, not to the mention the primary funding source so why aren't they held accountable? Some of you hold Oleg and 1C up like some sort of gods and people who can do no wrong which is foolish.
I'm not going to say anymore, but what you've said about Luthier isn't fair to him. There is no need to be an Oleg or 1C apologist.
Jason
This I did not know....Explains a lot though..
Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
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I'm sorry, but I need to say something because your comments are not correct.
1.) Luthier is a long-time friend of mine and you are smearing him with no proof or knowledge of what really happened that caused the less than stellar release of CLOD. Oleg didn't hand Luthier anything. Luthier was asked by 1C to try to finish the project after Oleg was, depending who you talk to, relieved of duty by 1C or he quit 1C. You make the call. Luthier is making the best of a bad situation and he is a good guy and from what I can tell a good manager. My point is you can't blame him for the release or bad decisions that were forced upon him by others. He was given 12 months to correct 6 years of bad decisions made by others. A good analogy is blaming me for every decision made regarding ROF before my company took over. Coming from someone who had to take over a not so great situation I know what he is going through.
2.) Again, you see to blame Ubi for all this. Why don't you ask 1C if $8 million and 7 years was enough time and money for a team to eventually be held accountable for their work and produce a product? Ubi is not quite the monster they are being portrayed as. Again, see my comments about Oleg's departure. Only Duke Nukem' can have a never ending dev cycle and hell even that got released eventually. Bringing Oleg back isn't going to solve anything. 1C loves when you blame Ubi. 1C was the day to day manager and owners of IL-2 franchise, not to the mention the primary funding source so why aren't they held accountable? Some of you hold Oleg and 1C up like some sort of gods and people who can do no wrong which is foolish.
I'm not going to say anymore, but what you've said about Luthier isn't fair to him. There is no need to be an Oleg or 1C apologist.
Jason
given your commercial link with luthier and your stated personal friendship, i can only interpret what you say as being aimed at minimizing blame for luthier, while shifting all the blame to oleg ( who isnt present to defend himself). the only new fact you are bringing is the 8 million figure, all the rest is speculation you say that luthier was handed the unfinished project 1 yr before release, which takes us to the point in mid 2009 when oleg was posting at 1C that he had a fixed release date of november 2010. the project then slipped pasted this nov/dec 2010 date and was then eventually released early in 2011 so when ubi (and/or 1c) put their foot down and gave the the uncompromising ultimatum of a fixed release date 1yr ahead, how did oleg react ? [admin edit] likely some years will go by before we find out, but that is much more likely then your spin of putting the sole blame on oleg. another piece of the puzzle we are missing is what exactly happened mid development that caused the lost 2 or 3 critical years which became the Achilles heel in this whole CoD project ? time wise this is the period we know oleg fired some people, or some left on their own (taking part of the code ?), oleg restarted the whole gfx/game engine from scratch (and coincidently the RoF project made a miraculous giant leap forward, which is unexplained to this day). are all those facts linked, its all speculation at this stage, but those missing years caused the whole delay mess that landed us where we are now. additionally, with luthier being oleg's trusted sidekick during earlier years of il2 development and with the 2 being close friends, AND with luthier being asked by oleg to help finish CoD a couple of years ago (when luthier paused his own korea project), when oleg then suddenly left when ubi/1c wouldnt give him more time, luthier would have been about the only logical person the project could have been transferred to (inside their existing team). now the question that arises is, knowing the various good skills and contributions luthier has made to the il2 series, did/does luthier have the project management skills to pull of what oleg knew could not be done to oleg's exacting levels of quality ? luthier took on an unthankful task to try and finish it, and tried to do so under very difficult circumstances no doubt, but he didn not success, its a giant mess. to try and blame oleg for those failures while he wasnt managing it anymore is not very rational Admin Edit - Don't go there rootango. Whatever rootango. I tried to give some insight into what happened so some people would stop dumping all their dissappointment on Luthier. My point is that he is not solely responsible for everything that went wrong and you guys should cut him some slack and give him time, like they did for us and ROF. There are a lot of Oleg fans out there and rightly so he brought you IL-2 which is great, but he is not a god. Something went wrong and I know a lot of the inside story, but what I said is as much as I want to divildge. The sim development community in Russia is quite small and a lot of what I have posted here is widely known in the Russian sim community. 99.9% of us westerners don't speak Russian so we don't pick up on it. As for you insuating that the ROF team stole the IL-2 code to make ROF that is a serious charge and is way off base. Over 40 people were hired to make the ROF engine fromscratch and the original investor spent millions of dollars trying to make a sim. Hence, the teething problems some of you refer to. Our engine has nothing to do with IL-2. Originally a small group wanted to make a game using the IL-2 engine, but they didn't like the treatment they received by MG so they went and found a new investor and started everything from scratch. They even dumped the models they had made to make sure they had nothing to do with IL-2. Our engine has made a drastic leap forward in the past 2 years because of the hard #%&*$# work of a small and talented team and a supportive community and nothing else. Believe me I wanted CLOD to be a huge success and help, along with ROF, WOP and DCS to show the retailers, publishers and potential investors that sims were a resurgent genre, but it's troubles have made that a little more difficult for all of us. Anyways, I'm done with this topic. Take my words however you want. I have a new update and airplane for ROF to release. :-) Jason
Last edited by 777 Studios - Jason; 08/29/11 05:23 AM.
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Entil'zha Sierra Hotel
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I'm sure we all would like to know what happened to the early years of development post-46 release that seem to have been totally wasted, but I doubt we'll ever get the real story. As Jason said, it's a small community of coders over there, and if someone talks it won't be hard to figure out who it was and that person risks being booted out. Probably not worth it to them unless they don't care about burning bridges.
There's no way they can convince anyone CloD is 5 years of work. Maybe there was that much research that went into it, but I've seen alphas of games that have had less than 2 years of development in better shape than CloD's Russian release. Aside from things like 3d models, textures, and the info people like csThor and others here have provided them, it really seems like the main code running the game was started no later than 2008, maybe even early 2009, with heavy previous code re-use. By comparison, the video on the 46 DVD (which came out years earlier) shows SoW:BoB looking, frankly, better than CloD does in some ways now. That is the part that is hard to take. If it looked like THAT back THEN, why do we have what we do NOW? Where's THAT code gone?
I think the new Il-2: CloD name is actually very apt, because instead of this seeming like the first title in a new series, it seems like the last title for an old engine that was pushed too far. Look at the last major release using the Quake 3 engine, MOH: Pacific Assault. Sure it looked better than any previous Q3-engined game, but it didn't work well. By that time the Unreal 2/2.5 engine had taken over and Doom 3 was already out IIRC. You can only take an engine so far before it breaks, and that's what CloD feels like. It needs a major overhaul, not tweaks, to make it what it looked like it was going to be back all those years ago.
The Jedi Master
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While we wait for Dart to complete his review, here is Tom "WLINK" Cofield's opinion piece on the roll-out of IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover.
http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_499a.html How does Tom really feel?
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A good fair (not)review.
It might have been good to include that Eagle Dynamics went through the same sort of trouble with LOMAC and learnt from their mistakes.
What WW2 Fighter pilots say about Angels and Airspeed:
"Nice job of getting down to the basics - love your choice of a cover!" Col. Clarence 'Bud' Anderson
"I have enjoyed reading angels and airspeed, it should prove good reading for all interested in combat tactics and their application related to the fluid air environment and state of technology in WWII years. All the best as you make it available." - Col. Charles McGee - Tuskegee Airman
NEVER ENGAGE STUPID.
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Permanent Latrine Orderly Hotshot
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True but 1C should have learned from some of their errors as well. Whirlwind of Vietnam and Theatre of War should have taught them something.
DCS is a small company and not tied to a large publisher like Ubisoft. Their pressures are different.
The artist formerly known as SimHq Tom Cofield
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Yes, well ... but you obviously do not realize that 1C (the mother corporation of Maddox Games) is a juggernaut that rivals EA in size. Which means big company, many beancounters, little "tactical freedom" for MG ... so to speak.
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Yes, well ... but you obviously do not realize that 1C (the mother corporation of Maddox Games) is a juggernaut that rivals EA in size. Which means big company, many beancounters, little "tactical freedom" for MG ... so to speak. Thor - I agree 1C Company aren't small but I don't think they are in EA's league in terms of size. Last I read was 1C was about 800 people (with majority in non-entertainment software, so like EA then  ). All of EA is about 7500 people now. MG seemed to have a bit of tactical freedom in not releasing CloD for six years too?
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EA owns a big chunk of Softclub (I don't remember if if was a majority stake) and 1C merged with Softclub. So they are indeed part of the EA universe. Hows that grab ya?
Jason
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Ah, so that clears up a misunderstanding. I was only told (via grapevine) that 1C was a very large corporation. Anyway, the big change came about 1.5 to 2 years ago ... a timeframe we all recognize, don't we?
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J-B Weld
by Terl9999 - 10/02/26 11:54 PM
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