homepage Forums Air Combat & Civil Aviation Air Combat - General WW II *******izing other people's add-ons

The subject is supposed to be b a s t a r d i z i n g, sorry for the confusion...

This thread is being started in relation to the 'Normandy' mission (and others) 46th's Irish created for CFS, as well as add-ons in general, and my feelings about people's add-ons being changed by others.

The CFS series is based on open-endedness, changing things, playing around with all the variables and creating. That's great. Invariably people's work will be taken, changed, and something new will arise out of it all.

Irish has recently pointed out to Leonard that proper credit was not being given for the original source of the Normandy mission Leonard has modified and put out again. Leonard felt that the mission was *changed* enough not to warrant further crediting of the creator.

I created 'Dynamic Weather 1.0' (among other things), and within the day, Leonard had *changed* that mod to have other things, and posted that change here.

Overall, I understand the nature of CFS, and as a tweaker myself, understand how we all want to take things apart, change them, or create new things and share them with others. It's all good in general.

My botton line is when someone creates something absolutely unique (ie 'Dynamic Weather'), or Irish's missions for example, RESPECT THE ORIGINAL CREATOR. It takes a lot of effort for some of these mods, factoring in a) we don't have full SDK info for some things b) this sim is in its infancy, and so the new stuff is more original than it might be in a year, c) coordinates need to be found, bounded, etc, using atlases, research, etc. The original work probably takes 10x as much time as a modified version does.

These mods are mostly given for free, so understand that folks simply want their work appreciated and credited, even if you're trying to make it better.

People just want to be recognized for what they've done. You want to change it? Fine, why not, but under no circumstances should an argument arise over giving credit IF you took someone elses work, *changed* it (even 95% changed), and then re-release it as your own, especially when they ASK you to give them proper credit. That's just in bad taste, IMO.

This is a community, we are the members, and anything less than proper respect is equal to pissing in your own backyard. I'd rather piss in another neighbourhood.

Leonard, I know you mean well with your mods, and don't mean any disrespect in this post. I'd back you up just the same if it were you that warranted it in another situation.



[This message has been edited by Dexterminator (edited 12-28-2002).]

All that need be done is to include the original readme, and put a little note in to mention whose work it was based on ...

It is a small thing, but will cause BIG trouble sometime if it isn't addressed!

I have to agree with ya Dex. Len probably just forgot to put the original readme in.

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Obergefreiter Uther VII Staffel III./JG26 [email protected]

Good words DEX.

The 1% program has to deal with it from both sides. Our planes are all collaborative efforts and have a number of contributors who get mentioned in the readme. Even in a case where someone changes some one else's paint job permission is requested to make the change and both get mentioned in the credits.

Unfortunately we have also have do deal with guys who have taken our planes and edited out the credits in the readmes and posted them to their own sites as their work.

One pay to fly site even had our airfiles 'inadvertently' used in a plane y'all had to buy.

Thing is word gets out to the community who is doing this quick enough and its just not worth trashing your reputation over.

BEAR 1% Team

Guess i don't see the big deal as long as someone isn't taking your stuff and selling it. I mean are you doing it for credit and recognition or are you doing it to help make a better game?

Sounds to me like the credit is more important to you, in which case if you don't want it "stolen" don't release it.

Swamp

You're kidding, right? This has gotta be flame bait.

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Obergefreiter Uther VII Staffel III./JG26 [email protected]

Sounds like Swamp hasn't yet produced something to give him a chance understand that certain feeling...

Actually, in regards to the addons and mods that I have worked hard on and released freely, the credit IS important to me.

It's not an ego thing but a recognition that I've taken my free time (and in many cases, long, long hours) to create an addition to a sim that all can benefit from. Just because it's not being charged for should not make it ok for someone else to steal/borrow/adapt ones's work without the common courtesy of letting everyone know where the foundation of your mod is coming from.

The many emails that I've received saying a simple "thanks" have been payment enough. I wonder where most of these flightsims would be without the free work being done by the user community?...

I think that "RSColonel_131st" hit it the nail right on the head when he said that those that haven't worked hard on a mod just don't understand.

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AxA
http://www.FlyAndFight.com

Gotta agree Dex Most strongly.
Creating mods for the community should be and is a labour of love for most modders, myself included. I have created a number of templates for the aircraft of CFS3 which I placed in the public domain. each of these templates took me roughly 10-15 man hours. Now for every person who uses my templates I have saved them 10-15 hours work. Is a line in a readme file really too much to ask? Obviously it is for some people or this post wouldn't exsist.
Now I hate the idea of payware with a passion, but if people insist on doing little things like not giving credit where its due modders will move to the payware scene. And where will that leave the games industry?
Now I know this may seem a bit strong and over the top but, I feel its the little, seemingly insignificant things that count. Ever heard the saying "It's The straw that broke the camels back"?
I agree with the Colonel too People who haven't put the effort into making a mod and giving it away just wont understand.

SD

bull crap Soup

If everyone had the means to post, host, and charge for their mods, we'd be making some good coin, many would be flying a much less enriched sim, and credits in readmes wouldn't be an issue.

I just view the credit as the payment for our work, similar to a "thanks" or a pat on the back. It matters to me though it may not matter to others...

It's just goodwill, nothing more...

Sorry for bringing up an old topic but:

I have to agree with Dexterminator. I believe that if you put the work in to genuinely increase the enjoyment and quality of a game, it damn well be credited correctly. I've never modded for CFS3, but I have done skins, noseart, and jacket art for B-17II and I worked hard on them. Is it really *THAT* much to ask to have a line of type with your name on it? Definitely not. Swampthng, it almost hurts my eyes to see your words. Sounds to me like the credit is more important to you, in which case if you don't want it "stolen" don't release it. Pardon me for being blunt, but what the hell are you thinking? If we don't want them stolen, don't release it? So, basically what you're saying is, Yes, you put the work into it, but just because you worked hard on it doesn't mean you deserve credit? So if somebody took one of your mods (though the info from your post strongly suggests that you don't mod), and slapped their name on it and took full credit and recognition for your hard work, you wouldn't care? Interesting thought, to say the least. I can't speak for the other users of this forum, but personally, I believe you should think things all the way through before you post garbage like that.

I'll step off my soapbox now.

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v1st Lieutenant Braden_01
v92nd BG - v325th BS
Hitler's Headaches!


v92nd Bomb Group (H) - The Pride of the v8th Airforce!

Help Links for B-17 Flying Fortress II: The Mighty Eighth

[This message has been edited by braden-01 (edited 12-31-2002).]

Just a follow-up to this thread. y'all might want to check this out

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?s=3fd648ab2ed4f47412019425722820a5&threadid=1904

and its companion thread at netwings.

All of us who had planes or files stolen by this guy received an apology letter from Pete at Simviation who considers this, unlike some who posted here, a very bad thing to do.

Interesting thing is none of us have heard back from the guy who pulled the stunt in the first place.

BTW the guy has been reamed banned from the site and the stolen planes removed from the Simviation download site.

BEAR 1% Team

Anyone who uses the work of another and doesn't at least credit him in the 'readme' puts a sour taste in the mouth of the originator. And that sour taste may lead to no further efforts to enhance the game or at least to share those enhancements.

So someone who does not credit the work of others is damaging the potential of the game for all of us.

We should all pay close attention to which people fail to give credit where credit is due, and avoid encouraging them.


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"I have just received five thousand Luftwaffe pilots, each with his little Iron Cross hanging around his neck. Tell me, what do I do with them?"

General Felix Steiner to General Hasso Von Manteuffel, during the defence of Berlin

Hasn`t this already been gone over in EAW and most likely any other sim with user made addons?Whats the big deal with giving someone credit for there work anyways.

Whats the big deal with giving someone credit for there work

There is no big deal mate, it (Normandy) was a misunderstanding is all or a genuine oversight - that other story of deliberately plagiarised aircraft is another kettle of kippers altogether

Ming