homepage Forums Air Combat & Civil Aviation DCS World Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus

Ah, this is part of the meaningless game! You keep saying you're not playing anymore, yet you keep answering and wasting more time on me. Now you can't answer or you'll look silly!

Again, depends on how you define "point of the spear"... graphics-wise, yes. In other areas, well, other simmers have different opinions on that matter.

Dedicated coders, sure.... but the whole point of this and many other threads is that they seem to be "dedicated" to various things which makes progress on the core items of the sim quite slow.



Yes, but your enjoyment of the game is as pointless to the discussion as is my white car. Might as well say the moon is blue. Bottom line, none of them contribute to the discussion.



I'm sorry then, but arguing that stopping work to do something else and stating that it does NOT affect the timeline of the previous work is just silly. You're cleaning your car and you stop to clean your bike and you say cleaning your bike did not push back the time when you would finish cleaning your car?



Unfortunately, I post my view and my reasoning behind it. You just seem to want to attack my view but provide no reasoning for your own.
"I'm right because [reasons]"
"Nope, you're wrong"
"I don't think so because [reasons]"
[sarcasm]"Ah, your view is the only correct one"[/sarcasm]



Because who accepts, examines, tests, and approves DLC? Western Union? The President of the United States? Yo' momma?



And what exactly are these ED staff doing when there is no DLC to test or approve of? Just sit in the coffee room?
If yes, then they're not earning their pay. They just sit around, using up ED's limited resources, with no work to show for it.
If no, meaning they do other work, then we're right back to where we started. They have to stop their work to review DLC and therefore delay their original work. Either way does not look good for ED simply because they choose to be "distracted" by the DLC.
Tell me again how your suggestion is valid?



Please, please, PLEASE cite me one example, just one... JUST ONE where a "distraction" did not cause a delay in a project's timeline. I'd love to use that on my manager who argues even a 15 minute coffee break is delaying the work for the day.

Also, you are suggesting that ED will pull people for overtime to test and approve DLC but will not pull people for overtime to make sure they meet their deadlines?



Ever hear of this: "We got some extra bugs to squash, we need 3 guyst to pull an extra shift tonight." Doesn't seem to happen in ED's production branches, otherwise we'd be having totally different discussions in that area!

Extra bug squashing leads to happier customers who will recommend your product by word-of-mouth which leads to extra income and a more loyal, satisfied customer base.

Are we seeing this happening? No? Then why expect it to happen in other areas?



SO we agree that DCS development is slower than what would be expected plus reasonable allowances. Good. We're on the same page there.

Why are they late? That is not important to you? Then they release a product.... full of bugs. So they release a late product that is buggy and none of that is important to you?

"Slander" is making false statements made to damage someone's reputation. Calling a spade what it is is not slander. They are incompetent. Sure, they have released a working product. But there is no cohesion at all with their modules. WWII aircraft with no WWII theatres or assets, that sort of thing. They release modules that are buggy and then move on the next module and leave the first one without significant progress for a significant amount of time. Where is the slander in that?



No. I am mature enough to say that you COULD be right. However, you are failing miserably to support your opinions and instead, you attack us for having a different opinion from yourself.



We are allowed to voice our opinions, are we not? I thrive on the SimHQ forums, yes, but I post in other areas as well, not just DCS, and my opinions on those other areas are different. As for your point, make it. But be prepared to defend it, especially on "hot" issues like these. You can't just cry for the WAAAAHmbulance.



Sure, enjoy your VR. Flightsimming has indeed never been better, but not all of it, not even a significant chunk of it is because of ED.

ED may be working towards making their product better, but other developers are actually SHOWING the fruits of their work better and faster than a supposedly dedicated group of guys called Eagle Dynamics.

And here little children we see a picture of Trolls diplomacy dyke.



I have stated this for at least 3 years now, but it is just pointless.

That is because you forget about the ultimate axiom: ED are idiots, ergo everything they do is just wrong. Their product is great, but because ED are idiots, even their great product is not great.

Yeah, you heard me.

Extra production means additional expense and additional resources required. Additional income is not guaranteed but any business would make that call based on balance and risk against turning a profit.

If you're relating the example above to this thread then additional campaigns may well mean extra income, but that isn't what is being discussed/disputed. Regardless of whether additional funds are generated many of us think the additional workload is not helping the core development progress.

Also, the additional funds that these campaigns generate could equally be lost further in the timeline should additional testing be required to ensure their compatibility and functionality within 2.5.

As I have read thru this thread and witnessed how the fan(atics) get on all I could think about
was this scene from a TV show



Its pretty pointless trying to reason with them, reason is what is lacking

Those people are usually called "Conservatives"....

This isn't the place to drag political leanings into it.

Don't worry. The comments also apply to Star Trek fans, Star Wars fans, *insert name* video game fans, sports fans, folks who do/don't believe in aliens, and almost any other group with an opinion about something.

Of course, the folks that don't believe in Bigfoot, are just plain wrong.

Nope, ED have proved they are incompetent long before payware campaigns started getting released thick and fast.

How can ED be anything but incompetent? They have never released a single product on time. Never. We're not talking about days or weeks with their delays either we are talking multiple years for several of their products and 2.5 is just one of them. they got this release so badly wrong that they obviously felt the need to release 'something' after promising so much about the new engine that it put them into a position of multiple concurrent development streams with various add-ons that only work/function with one of those branches.

Why, oh why then would a company that cannot hit their own release dates take on even more work when they are already spread so thinly and have pretty much every single one of their products with exception to the A10C and Blackshark 2 in a state of alpha/beta or unfinished. Why would they take on more work that will only need to be revisited and retested when the core engine is updated and becomes stable? It will only have one outcome.....more expense and more resources required to test/integrate/fix in the long run, so this makes the initial campaign profit/income a false economy. If ED actually need the extra income at this point just to bankroll the 2.5 related work then it's another shining example of incompetence in their planning. No business takes on work that they cannot profit from, it's financial suicide. It's literally day 1, week 1 in business. It's the first question that is asked when looking at a project - is it profitable. Given that the functionality of 2.5 has been delayed for so long then just imagine how far over-budget this work must be....literally years of extra man-hours. An example of incompetent planning, an example of under-estimating the development, integration and testing required.

As per the very first page of this thread, I wondered if it is down to quick profit because ED themselves can publish 3rd party campaigns with little work from themselves...however, there is still some effort required as they are not just spectators and given that they currently have these multiple branches and their own history of not being able to deliver on time why would they allow all this extra content when it will all need to be revisited as the core engine is still not stable and we've seen over time how changes to the core engine (and they're currently in the midst of a big change) consistently breaks features and functionality along the way.

The definition of incompetence is to 'the inability to do something successfully'. As mentioned above, the 'something' that ED have trouble with is the ability to deliver anything on time. As they are consistent in this regard there is a good chance their planning and appreciation of the size of the task is somewhat lacking. Some companies do have delayed software releases but I seriously can't think of any that have the same track record as ED - it's quite honestly shocking. This 2.5 build that we're currently waiting for is one of the products that was supposed to be released years ago and has had many, many delays. I'm really not sure how anyone can try and justify or argue that ED aren't incompetent because the delays are facts, this isn't just based on opinion or a big stink based on anyone trying to find proof that ED 'sux' as alluded to in Troll's last post.

ED undoubtedly have the ability to release quality software, that isn't up for dispute (although there are still some areas for concern whereby bugs go unfixed after being identified)....however releasing quality does not suddenly wipe untimely delays under the carpet. I'd be very interested to hear why ED aren't incompetent in their planning and release phases, I'd be very interested to hear how their ability to hit their own release dates are successful.

Sure, but we were not debating whether DCS is enjoyable. Is it a working product? Sure. Is it enjoyable? For many, yes. If you want to lase a target from Angels 15 on you A-10C, or ripple-fire Mavericks at a column of tanks, it's fun. If you want to do a guns attack on a BMP, that may be another story. You do have a point, but it has nothing to do with the other points we were talking about, therefore irrelevant and pointless to talk about it here.


The logic was that you want to finish washing your car as soon as possible so that you can move on to doing other chores. The logic was that the bike cleaning could've been done LATER, after the car cleaning was finished. The logic was that after cleaning the bike AND hopefully finishing cleaning the car, you'll have to clean the bike AGAIN so why clean the bike now?


Sure, your argument stands if you are just playing for personal entertainment, if there are no external interests involved. However, suppose you announce you'll be Twitch-streaming your game at 5pm, but you've been playing all day and got so frustrated with it.... 5pm comes around an you don't show up to the stream. You do show up hours later and your excuse was that "you went and watched a movie so watch me now how I solve the mission." Totally different things.


Totally plausible, but wrong because you're not taking all the factors into account. You may be right for other companies or for other instances, but not now in ED's case, unfortunately.


Labelling it "Parad-Ice constellation" is starting to get personal. I'm not calling it the "Troll-Sobek hallucination," am I?


Because we're trying to establish whether or not ED is learning from it's past mistakes. Being late due to [reason 1] once or twice is acceptable. Being consistently late due to [reason 1] 10 years later is another thing. And let's not hide the fact that ED is consistently late. That's why we're asking.


Those are examples of a proper "taking a break." Like stopping from your work on the Excel spreadsheet to have a cup of coffee. Like stopping from studying for your exams to have an hour or two to catch up with friends. Stopping work from Core DCS to work on DLC DCS is like stopping from your work on the Excel spreadsheet to write your monthly report for your boss or stopping from studying for your Chemistry exams to study for your History exams.

Try again.


You make it so easy, Troll.
So DCS will not pull people for overtime to meet their deadlines because there is no more budget and the product is already "sold."
They will, however, approve of overtime work for a new product that they can sell.

So they are not willing to pay for the extra work to fix and release an "already paid for" product but they'll stumble all over themselves to get more money out of the customer. Either way, ED does not come out in good light.

Try again.


See reply above.


They already have a product but they are promising a better one, but this one, like before, is late. Just because the bugs do not get in the way of the style you want to play does not mean it does not get in the way of the style others want to play. Some people may never see a bug or notice it, but for others it may be a make-or-break deal. But then again, "works well enough to be enjoyed" is not the reason we're discussing DCS here.


They're competent enough to make a flightsim, yes. They're not competent enough to have a proper plan of how they roll out their products (modern, then WWII, then Korean-era? Really? When will DCS Sopwith Camel come out?), they're not competent enough to have proper bug squashing support for their products, heck, they're not competent enough not to break their own tutorial missions between patches!

They are incompetent because they do not have focus, they still don't know how to plan for how long a development will take, and they can't even take constructive criticisms in their own forum! This is what we are talking about, not whether DCS is "enjoyable" for flightsimming.


No. Development of DCS is late whether they got "distracted" by DLC or not. Being "distracted" by DLC only makes things worse. The former exists without or even before the latter came about.


Sorry, where exactly is "that DLC may not have anything to do with them being late"???
Like I said, Core DCS is late already. DLC did not make them late. DLC will, however, make them even more late.


See "Parad-Ice" term above.
A broken clock is still correct twice a day, so you COULD be right. That's why I'm asking you to try again.

And here, Troll, is an example of something that adds nothing to the discussion at all. The point may be correct, but it is irrelevant.


You may want to re-read parts of this thread again.

I'll make it slightly easier for you because after all, you may need a break yourself as well: ED are idiots. The way they go about things are wrong. Their product is great, but because ED are idiots, they release their product late and even they themselves break their products and then take forever to fix it again.

Er, no. ED has trouble focusing on Core DCS as it is. They're having trouble getting it out on time. DLCs, while it may not be their "new focus," does nothing at all with helping them focus on Core DCS. It is not the cause of the delay, but it is the cause of ADDITIONAL delay.

That is the logic there. The funny part is that you guys don't see this even though we're already pointing it out to you.



Where was this implied?

ED was always late and they ARE late again. So what is the thing you "ED-Guys" try to defend if the people say ED should focus on the main problems and not "waste" their time with "sidekicks"?
Right now I have the feeling ED themselves wait with the bug fixing till the final engine is out (missiles fix incoming after 3+ years of nothing?).
If you then see the �we have something new to sell to you� thing �every weekend�, you can�t really believe why the rest of the game development last so long!?
The funny thing is to think about how many times the "ED-MODs" would have banned other people in the ED Forum for acting like they do here in this forum?
Very personal attacks I would say and without any reason because the people discussing about ED and not about them.
Sobek and Troll show very well which kind of persons they are. But nothing new. ;-)

Hmm, coming from the author of this huge heap of content



that really does mean a lot to me.

I don't see any ED mods posting in this thread lately. Do you?



Personal attacks? Where? You sure you're not trying to play the victim card here?



So what is this attempt at character assassination then?

I got the play on words. I did not find it funny.



Again, yes, a break from a task to relax and recharge batteries and re-focus can be beneficial.

A break from a task to do another task? Doubtful.



If they do have a plan and they're following the plan, maybe they need to make and follow another plan.
I'm sure they also have a plan and are following said plan for the Core DCS development and release. We all know how that's working out for them.

As for "DLC come on top of this," yes, it is extra. Does ED really have extra resources for DLC?
If yes, what are they doing when there's no DLC to test?



How are you showing that the focus (or resources) expended on campaigns (or DLC) do not affect the focus (or resources) required for Core DCS? By saying that they'll pull extra manpower for it? Is that all you have? By saying "maybe it isn't"?



I'm trying to. Maybe you should start making sense. You are quoting studies about people made to focus on a repetitive task for 50 minutes. I'm quite sure coding isn't "repetitive."



Hopefully, that explains it a bit better for you. Also, that was a statement of fact, not of feelings. They release their products late and break previously-working items. There is no feelings attached to that at all.



You are asking him for a number?? AFTER you yourself said this:


We may not be certain how much delays the DLCs have affected the release; I doubt ED themselves know. However, when a project is ALREADY delayed, what justification is there for entertaining "distractions"? (note I did not say "taking breaks," as we are talking about two different things here)

Well said!!

Jesus Troll, you didn't get anything of that was told to you, did you??


This is NOT "hate" or "hatred" or whatever you're accusing us (the ones that have a critical "eye" on ED's work), this is actually "worry" or "concern" that ED's current "plan of action" (if there is any concise plan of action) is just "messy" or just "confuse" which could even mean the end of this company on the near future, this if the devs refuse to learn from their mistakes and act accordingly (which for me, it's more than clear that won't happen anytime soon).
This is actual "worry" or "concern" that ED which with it's limited resources (this is pretty much the only thing that we apparently agree on - That ED has very limited resources!) spread so thin that all these very different DCS modern/WWII/Korea aircraft and other "DLCs" will never be finished as well as they will never fix important core issues and above all (and IMO) that they will never finish a proper scenario (with maps, unit sets, etc...) in order to play the purchased aircraft (again the example of WWII and Korea War era aircraft) in a realistic scenario.
If there's something which I believe most people have more love to than spending their money on their favourite hobby is to actually spend their money on priorities, namely on stuff that actually WORKS!
"Stuff that actually works" and ED/DCS only seems to apply or combine and barely so in the oldest DCS modules: BS2, A-10C and I would even say the Huey (despite many complains that even the Huey have some important features missing despite being considered a full-release version!). All other DCS modules simply do not work as they should with a varied degree of non-functionality between those other DCS modules.

Worse even, not only ED and/or the so called "third-party" are releasing unfinished Alpha/Beta aircraft modules which for what's worth may never be finished (just look at the DCS Mi-8 for example!) but now for the most recent aircraft modules you even have to buy a separate DLC campaign in order to play with the newly purchased aircraft (For example the DCS F-5E if I'm not mistaken)!

This is the recipe for disaster! Any other company building any other kind of stuff and that would act like ED had been acting for quite some time would already have GONE BANKRUPT!

By maintaining this same "stance" I don't believe that ED will last much longer. And I when this happens (note that this is a "when" and not an "if" this again if ED doesn't change its stance/behaviour in the meantime) I just ask you one thing:
- Blame yourself and others like yourself which seem to "narrowmindingly" follow ED, instead of blaming the ones that said: "I told you so"!

Resuming, I won't and I refuse give blank checks to anyone! Specially anyone which work I just cannot currently trust and this certainly includes ED!


After all this and if you can't understand what I and others are saying, all I can ask is:
Do you need me to draw you a picture or something? Jezz....

No DCS module is ever complete, always something to model and do better forever in simulations.
We get to fly the best simulation on pc available now, some of the hardest to model on pc is flight.
Yes long beta's, but lots to test no, help with the community.
Cutting edge technology, inventing the new technology for sims. Long development times, many many rewrites.
More advanced systems modeling compared to any other sim, ED set the bar too high?
Hard to reach and never quite finished, is great simulations and that is why it is great because of bar height.

You talk about feelings -- here's one for you: I'm disappointed that that's all you can say to me after what I said. I thought you'd be better than that. **THAT** one is about feelings.



Did I say they were robots? Did I say they work 24/7? No. Don't put words in my mouth.

I do understand what you've said. You're saying ED will not approve of overtime on Core DCS because the budget for THAT is already stretched, but they will approve of overtime on DLCs because that will bring in extra money, correct? Yes or no?

If yes, ED doesn't really look very good.
If no, then explain how I got your statement wrong.

I'll wait.



How do you cope with extra duties and still maintain productivity when EVEN WITHOUT extra duties, ED struggles to keep productivity up? Note that if they were as productive as they thought they'd be, then they'd be able to meet their deadlines. The fact that they're late means they're NOT as productive as they thought they would be. So explain again how doing EXTRA DUTIES will **NOT** affect productivity?

We're going 'round in circles here so I hope you have something good this time.



Wow. I go to work everyday. I guess you call that "repetitive." An author writes 20 books in his lifetime. I guess you call that "repetitive." A student takes piano lessons for 3 years and then plays the piano for the rest of her life. I guess you call that "repetitive." No wonder we're going 'round and 'round in circles!

I guess each takeoff and landing for you is repetitive as well, eh? Note "repetitive" is defined as: pertaining to or characterized by repetition, containing or characterized by repetition, especially when unnecessary or tiresome with "repitition" defined as: the act of repeating, or doing, saying, or writing something again; repeated action, performance, production, or presentation, the action of repeating something.



You confuse "being critical" with "feelings." I'll call a spade a spade. I don't have to make up stories to make ED look bad, they do it themselves. You agree with me that they release products late. You agree with me that their development times could be a bit faster. That is bad enough. You refuse to look at the "why" behind these issues but if you did, they (ED) would look even worse.



Again, diversion/distraction is to "take a break," ie, grab a cup of coffee, have a relaxing stroll, catch up with friends.

Stopping work on Core DCS to work on DLCs is just shifting tasks; you're still working. Do you stop flying Airplane XYZ to fly Airplane ABC and call that "taking a break"? You may be "taking a break" from flying Airplane XYZ (ie, Core DCS) by flying Airplane ABC (ie, DLC) but really, your still flying (ie, working). I think this is the third time I'm trying to make this point, I do hope you grasp it this time!



What? Calling someone an "idiot" involves emotional attachment? Where'd you get that from?

I see somebody make a dangerous overtake maneuver and almost wipe out the car in front of me, I conclude that the driver is an idiot... and now I'm emotionally connected to the driver or the situation?

I have a 3rd year Nursing student who cannot make the connection between vital signs and medication administration and despite repeated attempts at "guiding the horse to water," she still "refuses to drink" and I conclude that the student is an idiot... and now I'm emotionally connected to the student?

Pfft!



Thanks for the unsolicited advice, but 1) it has nothing to do with the discussion and 2) it has nothing to do with me at all.

Talking about DCS/ED is done because it is my hobby. A hobby does not mean "it's my entire world." It doesn't mean I can't be critical about it. It also doesn't take much to determine that ED deserves the labels given to them.

If you cannot handle the points I'm making and have to resort to questioning my life's priorities, maybe you should take a break.



Were we talking about whether this was "frustrating" or not?
Were we asking about whether anyone go their money's worth?

Here you are again talking about YOU and how you enjoy the sim or not get frustrated or feel you get your money's worth or enjoy the sim on VR. Fair enough and good for you!

However, we were talking about how ED works, how DLCs do nothing but delay development, etc... you seem to miss that discussion every now and again. Having trouble concentrating? Maybe you should take a break.



No. It's more like "there's so many things that need to be fixed now, they shouldn't be adding to stuff they will need to fix later on!" Also, there's no need to "make up" reasons. They're there. They just need pointing out.



The extra delay may not be significant, true. After all, what's 2-3 more months of waiting for a product that's already late by a few years??!! This reasoning proves ED are geniuses and totally **NOT** incompetent at all! Besides, delays happen all the time and in ED's case, delays happen. All. The. Time!!



Like I said, I call it as I see it. I don't have to "hate" it to see it for what it is.



Hahaha!! Troll, on your next flight, try coming to work late and saying you were late because of "traffic." Then try doing that for most (if not all) of your flights for the next few years. Your employer and colleagues will be adults and will cope with your "setbacks" and I'm sure they'll fire you in a civil manner.



Your view is welcome, but then it will be scrutinized. You seem to struggle once a counter-point is made, and then start going 'round in circles, then you go on a tangent to talk about feelings and enjoying the sim and how we are wrong because YOU don't find it a waste of time or money or that it works great in VR. Like I said, if it gets too much for you, you may benefit from taking a break from this repetitive task of posting your views and opinions online.