homepage Forums Air Combat & Civil Aviation Rise of Flight - The First Great Air War WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced

Detailed ground forces including visible infantry are a must for any future WW1 sim. More significant than the shape of the bullet holes in the canvas for instance......

Ah, I see that you've got your finger on the button over there...or is that blip?

Nice to see the devs are eager for input. I do hope they contact Memorial Flight.

S!

Keeping her firing on all cylinders Kev.

(do you have a new e-mail addy)

Speed of Smell? what the hell.

Dave, e-mail sent.

Oh boy - this is looking good!!

A more than worthy successor to the venerable 'Red Baron 3D'.

I can't wait!!

I spent countless hours playing "Red Baron" on my Amiga 3000 - and I think this is a SIM I can't wait to buy !

In case the developers still stop by-----

I recently picked up a copy of "The Illustrated Directory of Fighters" by Mike Spick printed 2002.

The book lists the performance figures for all of the proposed aircraft to include:

horsepower
empty wt.
takeoff wt.
wing area
wing loading
power to weight ratio
maximum speed at specified altitude
time to climb
service ceiling

I would assume that those brainy computer dudes could do some pretty slick computatin' and put together a fairly representative "flight model" from these numbers.

Copterdrvr

Looking at the DH-4 model something important struck me: if this sim uses the same uber AI gunnery model for rear gunners, we're in deep doo-doo. Unlike WWII crates, you can't make slashing attacks on the bombers - they are almost as fast as the fighters and the puny MG's will take some time to down them so saddling up is unavoidable.

Saddling up to 2 seaters was suicidal in WWI; just about all the aces agreed attacking 2 seaters was really more dangerous than dogfighting other scouts, because mobile rear-facing guns made them so lethal. Planes like the FE2b and Bristol Fighter were dangerous enemies.

My recollection is that a standard tactic was to swoop up underneath a 2 seater. That or stalk them and take them unawares.

Just found out that the Over Flanders Fields mod has little people on the ground.

Take a look at this and this !

Attacking 2 seaters was, indeed, dangerous. The Red Baron was severly wounded attacking one. It's arguable that his pain and headaches he sufferred from that injury led to his poor decision making that got him killed.

Luftberry was killed by a 2 seater. While the D7 was considered the best fighter of the war it was one of the British 2 seaters (the name escapes me at the moment) that was used for several years after the war.

UPDATE: It was the Bristol F2 mentioned earlier that was kept in production until 1932.

I thank my RB3D experience in dealing with 2 seaters for my ability to attack bombers in IL2 without sweating gunners that much. It's been my experience in several servers flying the Me110 or SBD that sniper rear gunner AI aren't needed as 99% of pilots will idiotically park on your 6 about 100 meters back and 10 meters and let you shoot them to your heart's content.

Oh, and Pritzl, it's a fallacy to think WWI couldn't use energy tactics and slashing attacks. Just read up on Rickenbacher's use of the Vrille and Cuban Eight to attack multiple 2 seaters. He used to demonstrate to fellow squadron members over his aerodrome going after recons.

He once took on 7 by himself, blowing 2 of them up on the first pass and using classic BnZ tactics to down one more and chase off the rest. While the guns aren't as powerful the speeds are slower so more shots can be placed. Hit meat, metal or fuel and you could bring one down in a relatively quick amount of time.

Production of the F.2B continued until 1920. It was retired from RAF service in 1932.

The Cuban Eight name was originated by Len Povey, an American who commanded the Cuban AF. He performed it the Miami air races in 1936.

Salute

This proposed Sim MUST have human figures in it.

At the speeds these planes are travelling at, quite often 60 mph or lower, (stalling speeds were around 45 mph) there must be humans in the game to give it the realistic feel it needs.

These should include the following:

-Aircraft maintenance personnel, attached to parked aircraft and in working poses.

-Troops manning weapons, in the form of MG Gunners, (both AAA and regular) Artillery gunners, and drivers for vehicles.

-Stationary soldiers, preferably a pair or Squad, in crouching position.

-Ideally the game should include moving soldiers, preferably a pair or a Squad. This is more difficult but would pay big dividends in a realistic feel.

All of these should react to being strafed by aircraft or hit by AI MG's or Artillery by falling to prone position. They can dissapear after a while if nessesary. AAA Gunners should move with their weapon as it tracks.

Only having vehicles in the Sim is a huge mistake and completely ahistorical.

For example, the German tank shown in the screenshots, although historically accurate, was produced in TINY numbers. Less than 30 if memory serves. Even the Allied tanks, were numerically not as important as ground troops or artillery, and were only seen in areas where offensives were happening.

I can understand not including horses, they are difficult to model, and by 1917, the starting period for the game, they were being replaced by vehicles.

Perhaps some stationary horses, cows or sheep would work.

But to miss out on humans would be a big mistake.

Hopefully the designers already understand this and are working on these elements.

Above 100MPH for the scouts being modelled as player controllable. 115 MPH for Camel, 103MPH for Dr1, Fokker D7 127MPH, etc. Give or take about 5 to 10MPH depending on sources.

Salute Seawulfe

The speeds you are quoting are MAXIMUM speeds.

How often are you at maximum speed for the aircraft in IL-2????

The stalling speed for the Camel was 45 mph, for the DR-1, even lower.

A low speed turnfight would see aircraft maneuvering at 60-70 mph.

Well, top speed in level flight, but these planes travelled pretty close to their top speed due to lack of throttles on many (except SPADs AFAIK).

Salute

The only engines with no throttles were the Rotaries. All the inlines had throttles, which includes the Albatroses, the Fokker DVII's, SE-5's, Spads, and most of the two seaters.

These aircraft bled speed pretty quickly in turns too, with the small engines, and thus they would not be travelling at max. speed, unless they were dropping alt.

Agreed, and the same goes for Oleg's BoB or any other new sim in development. The days of empty, machine-inhabited sim worlds ought to be over by now.

Yes, it's a performance issue but it matters umpteen times more than getting the stall speed of the [insert aircraft] 99 instead of 98 percent correct.

To the above list of essentials I would also add horse-drawn carriages (both civilian and military) and troops marching in column.