homepage Forums Air Combat & Civil Aviation Rise of Flight - The First Great Air War WWI sim, based on the IL-2 engine announced

My grandfather was a StuG III battery commander and if you have Close Combat III there's a video of him awarding the EK2 to his sergeant.

Now that is very cool IB!!!

I don't have the game, but somebody should copy and host a frame from it for all of us to see.

In the book "Under the guns of the Red Baron" - Norman Franks et al, MvR's combat reports are all listed ( retranslated ) and he often describes getting to within 50 and even 20 (!) yards before firing.

OTOH, a survivor of one of his kills also says how amazingly accurate he was in a diving attack - so even though he WAS a very good shot, he nevertheless did not fire from long distance unless he had to.

How far were the long shots he made?

Just a bit of "color-commentary" here:

A number of authors have written that the Red Baron suffered not only physical trauma from his wounding in combat on July 6th, 1917, but as result of this near-death experience he was finally forced to realize that even through disciplined observance of the "rules" of combat, no man could ever wholly guard against the eventual day when luck turned against him. In the heady days of his ascension in combat, Richthofen at times felt comfortable to deride the fact that some of his "gentlemen" opponents in the Brit "barges" dared to fire at him from ranges he considered too far to be effective, this to the Baron reflected the nervous action of a rookie gunner, and foolishly signaled the inexperience of his quarry. To a degree, the arrogance of his well-earned knowledge and fame came to a stark collision with a head-grazing .303, and forced-realization that no man is invunerable despite what his intellect might lead him to believe!

Many contempoary's of MvR, and experts about the man's life, say he never fully recovered from the physical and psychological effects of an errant bullet fired from too far away to be of concern.

MvR did observed and teach Boelcke's rules of closing up on the enemy before firing, even though by all accounts he was a superb shot as was Guynemer and Fonck. At times he would fire at longer ranges hoping to cause a faster opponent to begin evasive maneuvering prematurely (not against 2-seaters though), but as a tactic of closing the distance on his target.

Generally, I think most would agree that long-range firing in WWI was discouraged by the experienced air fighters, but even the experts could fall a-foul of the seemingly most improbable of odds (and the laws of nature).

Salute

One thing which is crucial that they incorporate in this WWI sim, and that is the effects of G maneuvering on the rear gunner.

If we have the type of AI gunner accuracy we see in IL-2 FB/PF, in this new Sim, then for a pilot flying a single seater, to attack a two seater will be akin to a deathwish. At the ranges nessesary to hit, ie. under 100 meters, the current modelling of the AI gunners is such that they can riddle an attacking aircraft almost every time. At the much slower speeds of the WWI birds, the attacking fighters will be so many clay pidgeons to be blasted out of the sky. Especially since these aircraft are so much more fragile, with no armour protection for the pilots at, ie. no 50mm glass windshield, no seat armour, no self sealing tanks, in most cases nothing but a doped canvas, (highly flammable) covered frame, and a sheet metal fuel tank which will gush out gas with the slightest hit.

In fact, a rear gunner in a maneuvering two seater was subjected to such forces, and thrown about so forcefully, that they were unable to even man the guns, let alone fire accurately.

An updated is posted here with new DM



"Some comments to the Fokker damage model (DM).
WWI planes damage model will have alot of difference to original IL2 damage model. Due to different construction and weapons, WWI plane construction where very hard to split in pieces, cause of tubes/beem construction which strapped by some extencive wiring. So actually there will be lack of fallen parts but alot of "smashed basket" effect. DM will have some number of DM parts wich will be able to rotate/move along each other, so we will be able to construct a different types of crashes/destructions/battle damage. Also, due to fabric covering on the planes, we add some interrior details of plane structure and you can see some details of it on the screenshots."

thats realy an important point to think about in this new sim.
because the reargunners , IF leaving like they are now in PF , will destroy the whole game.

try to attack an IL2 fieldmod ore just an U-2 with a Ki-43

also very important is here the notice"bubble" of the AI , if you can realy sneak below and behind and enemy - not possible in the moment , at 200m distance they are aware of you.

Will have to check tonight and post in morning ( home PC dead ).

Regarding gunners - MvR also talks about closing to between 50 and 100 yards, hitting the engine, plane goes down with "observer firing all the time" - guess they really were pretty innacurate as per above posts.

Yes, I wish AI pilots had a Sky-scanning algorithm ( frequency and coverage determined by skill level ) with a "notice-arc".

That would let you sneak up effectively AND accurately penalise planes with ... regretful rear views.

Even WWI 2-seaters could be snuck up on if they were taking photos, directing artillery etc. - it was a labour-intensive process.

HOT DAMN'!!!! - Look at that damage screenie!!

This is just what I hoped for! (see above quote)

The damage model outlined is just exactly what it should be: KUDOS to the programmers!

Salute

Couple comments about Manfred Von Richtofen and the effects of his injury:

MvR was the son of a Prussian aristocrat, (albeit not a particularly wealthy one) and he grew up with the concept of war as a big game. He was also an avid hunter, who liked nothing better than to gain trophies. His original regiment was mounted, (hence his ranks were cavalry ranks, ie. "Ritter", instead of Hauptmann) and he didn't see a lot of the horrible trench warfare combat which the infantry were subjected to.

When he transferred to the German Air Service, he arrived in single seaters at exactly the right time, ie. when the Germans were on the technological upswing, with total superiourity. The Albatros DII and DIII were considerably better than most of their opposition. Plus most of the British aircraft MvR encountered were nearly defenceless two seaters. If you look at the list of the aircraft he shot down between his debut in the fall of 1916, and the time of his wounding in the spring of 1917, most are BE-2's or RE-8's. In the case of the BE-2, this was an aircraft which could barely do 65 mph, had the gunner position in the forward seat, where operator had a very limited field of fire, and was notable for being extremely unmaneuverable. (the British 1913 design team which created the aircraft were using a set of criteria from the RFC which emphasised stability and easy operation, to the point that the BE took forever to roll into a bank) Rarely he encountered Allied fighters with competent pilots, even when that happened as with his fight with Major Lanoe Hawker, his opponent was flying an obsolete DH-2, which was 40 kph slower than his Albatros, with a significantly inferior climb.

So it is understandable that he treated aerial as nothing more than a more interesting version of a hunting party, with trophies to be collected, (for a while he took something from every aircraft he shot down) and awarding himself a silver engraved cup for each victory, with the type and date carefully inscripted.

But as 1917 wore on, his opponents gradually became more difficult, he encountered the Sopwith Triplanes, which were clearly superior to the Alb DIII, (although in very small numbers, most of the British fighters were Nieuport 17's which were inferior to the Albatros's over 10,000 ft) he nearly died when a wing of his Albatros DIII partially collapsed, and finally he was hit in the combat with the FE-2E's.

By the way, the hit was not as much of an accident as might be expected. The FE-2E was actually quite a doughty opponent, the same Squadron which wounded MvR had shot down an killed another German Ace earlier. When the FE's formed a defensive circle, with each aircraft following the other's tail, the gunners had a stable platform to fire from, with multiple gunners able to focus on the lead attacking aircraft. (MvR invariably led the attacks)

And if a German fighter was silly enough to slow down and dogfight an FE, he often got a real surprise, since, while slow, they had a very tight turning circle.

MvR was lucky enough that the combat occurred on the German side of the lines, (as they most often did during this period due to RFC commander "Boom" Trenchard's orders for his airmen to be aggressive) or his career would have ended at that point.

Although MvR was definitely seriously affected by his injury, and re-entered the aerial ring much chastened, I do not agree that he was severely psychologically impaired.

He certainly put aside much of his earlier boyishness, but the changes were also positive.

He directed his energies to improving the lot of the German Air Service, focusing on improving training, getting high quality aircraft, and generally acting as the senior Jagdflieger should. It was due to his efforts that the Fokker DVII was picked as the replacement for the Alb DVa and DR1.

He was not in a hurry to get back to combat, but his time away was not wasted, and the administrative work he did was invaluable.

However, when he came back, he was faced with a much different enviroment.

The Germans no longer had technological superiority, the Alb DVa was inferior to the Spad XIII, Camel and SE5a, and the DR1, although a superb dogfighter, was too slow. (the DVII only arrived a few days before he was killed, and he didn't fly it in combat)

Plus he was now expected to lead the Jagdgeschwader in an offensive role, flying over the enemy side of the lines, in support of the German Spring 1918 offensive. Which meant supporting the ground attack aircraft, flying at low levels with all the dangers that entailed, ie. AAA, plus the potential of being bounced by Allied Squadrons entering the fray from a superior altitude. (as was the case with MvR's last combat when Brown's Camel Flight attacked from a superior alt)

MvR was definitely suffering from headaches and tired more easily, so that he would retire to his cabin immediately after a combat to rest, but he was scoring at a very high rate, and showing no impairment of his extraordinary gunnery skills. (he was also a very fine pilot as well, but quite rightly emphasised gunnery as the most important aspect of combat flying) If you look at his kills during this period, they were the most dangerous enemy aircraft types.

His luck ran out with the lucky AAA MG round which hit him, (if it was AAA) but in any case, having a Camel on your tail on the enemy side of the lines is not a recipe for longevity.

By that stage, he was clearly expecting to die, (simple mathematics told him he would be unlikely to survive) but it was not a fearful anticipation on his part. He was clearly determined to do his duty to the best of his abilities, and to present an example to his fellow German pilots.

If there is a stage of MvR's career that is the most admirable, it would be this period, AFTER his injury, when he focused on his responsibilities, improved the lot of the G.A.S. Pilots, and continued to fly and fight in an extraordinarily effective fashion.

Re: the damage screenie, and just to be nitpicking a lot... - The pulled-off strips of wing canvas could do with slightly more ragged edges, they look a bit too cleanly ripped-off now... Also a sprinkling of bullet holes would be nice.

Fabulous British and French tank models in the screenies!

I'm noticing that the ripped-off pieces of canvas appear semi-transparent in the render, both on the wings and on the fuselage (where the Balkankreuz is). I'm guessing this could mean that the canvas might be rendered in a different of way there, maybe even FLAPPING! That would indeed invalidate my above remark... Well, stunning-looking render in any case.

Sorry if it sounded like I indicated MvR lost his nerve after his head injury, as he did not!

Although von Richthofen soldier on, taking on greater command responsibilites for JG 1 in fact, I ascribe to many author's opinions that his wounding in the summer of '17 did in fact change his demeanor, with the almost inevitable result of anyone who considered his approach to air combat as more science than art, and that his near-death experience would have caused a man of his temperment to certainly reconsider what the chances of his surviving the conflict had become.

Also Buzz:

There's was no way for Richthofen to had known the experience of 2nd/Lieutenant A.E.Woodbridge, the F.E.'s gunner, but engaging with a Lewis Gun in aerial combat at a range of 300 yards was considered too distant for accurate fire, and to this extent even Woodbridge himself did not feel justified to put in a claim for Richthofen's out of control aircraft, because of the improbabilty that he had indeed scored a telling hit on this diving red Albatros.

Most experience fighter pilots considered engaging the aircrews of multi-seater aircraft more challenging than tackling single-seaters, this is why maneuver and tactics was so important to the suucessful hunting of the army cooperation aircraft. If one attempted to engage an aware mult-seater crew, which possessed an active and efficient defensive armament, the use of feint attacks and numbers was advised, otherwise fighter pilot were instructed to avoid the enemy until advantage was secured.

Again, if a sim doesn't create the conditions (read: visuals) that enable the "hunt", you'll not have a combat arena where true wartime tactics can be deployed, but rather something artificial-like and insular only to the simulated game environment itself.

Anyone have the design and colors used by late war Jastas?

For example, some I know of:

Jasta 27 had a yellow stab/elevator with a black anchor and a yellow cowl

Jasta 19 had a yellow stab/elevator with a single wide black stripe set at an angle on each side and a white cowl

Jasta 15 had black(3) and white(2) stripes set at an angle of the leading edge of the stab/elevator.

at the moment we are workin over alfa-textures on the main skin (its about ripped edgges and bullet holes) so the actual screenshot skin shows, lets say, an example of cutaway with damaged parts desposition

yes, I guessed it was so VikS! - Looking forward to more renders!

buzzsaw, thx a lot for your interesting posting on v. richthofen.

Considering distances at which they used to shoot at each other, you should notice that these planes turned extremely tightly...

for those not too far from paris, you should visit the fert� alais airfield where, usually on first weekend of june (3&4 june 2006 is the next one), you have a meeting with a bunch of WWI birds... and you can believe me, when they turn around each other, even if they are collection aircraft (and therefore, note pushed too much) they really turn like nothing else I've seen before... what's more, their maximum speeds are barely superior to take off speeds of WWII warbirds...

from there on, I guess that, to have any chance of hitting another aircraft, they really needed to be very close, say 50 yards maximum (at bigger distances, it was more matter of luck than marksmanship... considering how much these planes "move" in flight

That screen is very good, especially if they add the bullet holes and flapping canvas.

but the planes should not 'crumple' if shot. only if structural failure happens by approaching VNE. that shot shows the plane crashed, as the wing is bent and the fuse broken.

they have the proper concept, which is very good.