homepage Forums Air Combat & Civil Aviation Battle of Britain + Battle of Britain II Glory!

My apologies. I never meant offend.

If you'd like to help keep track of your progress, you can use the results tables located at the bobresults locations, posted within my signature. Honor code in effect. Maybe I can come up with a medal award feature, based on offline accomplishments and post that also.

And yes, it is awful hard to admit that "persona 1" has died, or been captured.

Think maybe you should find out a little bit about these medals and what the it was to earn one before waving them around in your post

Very Cool Neun! Good to know that somebody else will share the glory or agony in the pursuit of 'DiD' nirvana.

bushbaby - are you implying that I disrepected the honor of those that may have recieved those medals/awards by 'waving' them around as you put it? BTW, do you think the game 'Medal of Honor' is disrespectful? Do you think it in bad taste for Hollywood movies to pin 'real' medals on actors in the context of movie? Hell, is it bad taste and disrespectful to buy a sim game like BOBII?

I'm not sure where you're coming from so you'll have to spell it out for this dumb Yank. Bottom line, i have the highest level of respect for those served and may have recieved the UK's highest honors during the War.

Im not sure about the criteria for RAF awards/medals, but the Luftwaffe is fairly well documented. Besides the simulation itself will more than likely hand out awards for certain acheivments within the Sim, and these should be historical in nature.

This entire concept of "Dead is Dead" only helps to honor the actual pilots that flew these missions, by helping to create some sense of loss, instead of just hopping into the next cyber aircraft and jumping into the fray. None of us who try to make this as realistic as possible have an "arcade" mindset, and most of us look at BOBII as a simulation and not as a game.

I mean I don't think Elton John has a Distinguished Flying Cross?

For instance Yarbles grandfather, flew missions in WWII, and if there was anyone who takes these missions for their historical value, it's Yarbles.

Do I equate myself with actual Luftwaffe acheivers such as Barkhorn and the like because I might amass a pretty impressive record? Hardly, but I do appreciate the monumental acheivement of just flying out and returning to base, hundreds of times, factoring in weather, mechanical failure, and yes, some hotshot trying to shoot your arse down. Sims, can do that, and at the same time help us to look at these guys in awe.

Just kidding about Elton John.

bushbay, your're way out of line, if the UK government can hand them out with the smarties ( that would be just too much like the US ) and for political gain then I have no problems with a "yank" useing them to celebrate accomplishments, even if only virtual one's. If anything it draws attention to these awards and what they look like, so the next time we see some old duffer with some coloured ribbon on his coat a few more of us may just recognize what they are and the respect they deserve.

Mowgali

The dead-is-dead approach to me seems the way to go, but that is just a personal preference.

I think I understand where bushbaby is coming from: Associating a specific medal VC with a certain number of kills to me would be an over-simplification of the acts of bravery required to "win" such a medal.

Again this is just my personal opinion. To each his own.

I have always played dead is dead, does this sim keep track of the pilot record at all?

I think the VC is inappropriate as it is only awarded for extreme acts of self sacrifice in the face of the enemy, its least won by the RAF as by the nature of those acts, there was not usually anyone there to see them and if there were, they often did not survive. However, the princilpe is IMO a very good idea. I think it irrelevant anyway as if people do not cheat at BoB I doubt we would ever see a BoB pilot with that many kills, its just too difficult.

In all fairness, I think historical is the way to go. Not sure what the RAF determination was for thses awards, but I bet it's modeled in the sim. Honor system anyway, and most of this would just be a way of charting our improvements, and lamenting our losses. I know I'm going to get waxed, plenty and most likely will not start anything within a serious DID approach till I get some time in with the Sim. (simulated training you might say)

Besides, BOB was only a few months in duration, and I don't believe anyone is going to be that high of an achiever if the campaigns are flown within the real settings. I think I'll take a look at some of the higher Luftwaffe kill tallies for a comparison.

I think we are just all a little bit antsy, until we climb into those cyber beauties and experience the sim first hand.

I would be interested in someone who has BOBII answer to MK2's question. In addition, is their an "event log" of sorts for storing our campaign information?

The problem with British medals in a number of flight sims is that they lump them all together in a hierarchy.

Basically, the DFM is a medal only available to enlisted ranks e.g. Sgt Pilot. An officer can't get one.

The performance medals available to officers were the DFC and the DSO. The additional awards were "bars" to each, i.e. another one. Amazingly no flight sim seems to get this.

The George Cross is not awarded for combat prowess, i.e. killing people, but for courage in the face of danger - e.g. Malta got one, and individuals, including civilians, have received them for saving life.

The DSM is, I think, an army medal for non-officers.

The MC is an army medal for officers. Pilots got it in WW1 when they were part of the army, but not in WW2.

Hardly anybody gets a VC. Mostly it is given for one-off crazy heroism (e.g. Guy Gibson). An exception was Grp Captain Leonard Cheshire, the greatest bomber pilot in the RAF who performed with outrageous courage for years.

I have no idea what the Air Force Medal is, but I guess it is awarded retrospectively for being there.

The British never made a big thing about medals. But flight sims don't seem to recognise that Mentioned in Despatches and Bars to medals already awarded were the way things worked.

E.F, yes well pointed out. Most people just don't know. I think a system that reflects the way they were issued would be best, including mentions in despatches and Bars.

Any game that awards a decoration is going to be unrealistic in its criteria, as a computer has no real way of knowing what would be a brave act in real life, and if such an act would even be noticed. In the real world, to get the VC, one would have to be incredibly, uniquely, and conspicuously brave, and damned lucky if the award is not posthumous.

How could a computer know that shooting down two or three Stukas in a Spitfire in a combat involving twenty Spits and three Stukas would probably be considered less of a sacrifice, in real world terms, than deliberately crashing a catastrophically burning and barely controllable Hurricane into a field to prevent the wreckage from hitting a village? To the PC, it would be three kills good, award the pilot a DFC; pilot dead in a crashed Hurri, mission failed.

So, if awards are to be made, then a purely kills-based system such as that proposed by Yarbles would really be the only reasonable method in a PC simulation game. While debate might rage as to how many kills should result in each award (his numbers are crazily high for the higher end awards, in my opinion), it seems to me as though he might be on the right track, for those who are interested in such things.

On the whole, though, I am one of those who would rather leave the VC for the real world. Even if I do crash the virtual Hurri to save the virtual village, I do so safe in the knowledge that my cat is purring in my lap, the kettle is singing in the kitchen, and that I will feel the warmth of my wife next to me as I sleep until another golden dawn. That is rather a different prospect than feeling one's legs consumed by flames, gritting one's teeth until one's gums start to bleed, and, just before being smitten to nothingness and everlasting night, feeling terrible pain, fear, and loneliness.

Both James

I agree. As long as the medals are correctly awarded. To be fair there was a class system, (officers v. nco's). But Mentioned in Despatches did mean a pin of some sort. It meant a lot.

If somebody had got 200 kills in the BoB, probably they would have got a VC. What was the top score? Seventeen? Twenty?

Jesus guys.... :rolleyes:

Flight Lieutenant Nicholson was Fighter Command�s only VC in the Second World War. His decoration was awarded after an engagement with the enemy near Southampton on 16 August 1940, when his aircraft was hit by 4 cannon shells, 2 of which wounded him while another set fire to the gravity tank. When about to abandon his aircraft because of the flames in the cockpit, he sighted an enemy fighter. This he attacked and shot down, although as a result of staying with his aircraft he sustained serious burns to his hands, face and legs.

True Grit,True Brit

Trooper,

Sorry, mate. Really. Are we being too anal? I apologise. But it would be nice to get it right.

God, I hate being anal. That's flight sims for ya. Thankfully I know very little about the Me109 - sorry, I mean the Bf109, otherwise things might get out of hand.

Overtired.

Thanks for the input on the RAF system. The Luftwaffe, as far as I know, made a system of awards fairly simple. We will see how it plays out.

Getting it right, would indeed be nice and I am the first to admit just how ignorant I am on the RAF. I am sure this sim will help in that regards. Nothing but respect for the RAF from this simmer.

Yarbles

No apology needed. BOB1 never had a medals system and I think it would be a good idea. In other sims I always get a thrill when I get a gong.

I thought your idea was admirable. I hope they'll give medals for just surviving, otherwise I'm buggered.