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Harrier, no question about it! We need something better than SVGA Harrier that came out sometime before the last ice age!

In the years that I've been working with sims, I've taken a keen interest in the follow-on planes that everyone wants.

But one question is seldom ever asked...and that is the one that takes the debate to the next, and to me, most logical step.

The real question is not what the aircraft should be...instead, it is what does the simmer think he is going to do with it, given the limitations that we have in terms of control devices and viewing environment.

Some of these aircraft require a crew to fulfill their mission. How do we deal with that?

Others are a "one mission only" type of plane. How many bombing missions in a B-1 or B-2 do you think it would take before you got bored with the game?

Many of today's weapons systems require a connection with outside systems...LGBs being the favorite example. Do we continue to push questions about where the outside input is coming from to the back-burner?

Don't get me wrong. I think it's high time to move on to another type of sim environment or type of operations...the problem is making that happen within the constraints that we all have to live with.

I voted for a Tornado for dual-seat option, but that is really my third choice. I would much rather see an F-15E or and F-14 for the first two-seat foray.

For single-seat, its carrier ops all the way.

Very good point, IMHO. I don't really like the idea of twin-seaters for this very reason, if they were modelled with any substantial accuracy most of us would be completely overwhelmed with the workload. Not very realistic.

I think the only viable way to deal with this would be to give the player the choice to switch between the crew positions, with the AI automatically taking over the vacant role. However to make this realistic and, most importantly, to make this work well the AI would have to be bloody good, extremely complex and capable of following authentic procedures in concert with the player. Where specialized aircraft with a distinct division of work between pilot and WSO are concerned it would also mean that ED would practically have to develop two cockpits for one aircraft. Not to mention the fact that a twin-seat sim with out the ability to have an all human crew in multiplayer would be somehow lacking, IMHO.

So, personnally I'm of the opinion that modelling twin-seaters is much to complex for the time being, as much as I'd like it for the MP aspect alone. I'd suggest that we let ED do their thing with the numerous single-seaters that have never been modelled in depth sofar, such as the Mirage2000 and the Harrier for instance, before moving on to multi-crew aircraft.

From Andy..

"Some of these aircraft require a crew to fulfill their mission. How do we deal with that?"

To which I answer...The same way that Janes F-15 or DI's Tornado did...2 crew sims arn't exactly new.

WE already have AI that can "fly" an aircraft..why not AI that can operate the back seat of a Tornado and release chaff flares etc etc...Janes could do it, why not ED..??

Goanna, as I recall the DI Tornado had a waypoint following autopilot that could operate from just after take off untill you were on the ils for landing. This allowed you to jump into the rear seat and set the aircraft up for LGB attacks.IIRC the loft mode from the front seat was great fun and it had training missions that actually put you through a weapons delivery test! A tornado add on would be great but I thought the 2 seat thang wasn't an option?

Because Jane's modelled only a single fly-able plane in the first place. ED chose a different route by doing several. Besides, like Caretaker remarked the AI in LOMAC currently has a few short-comings which might make your life as a WSO hair-raising at times

Noone said it was impossible, just that it would be a tremendous development effort with the current code base.

"like Caretaker remarked the AI in LOMAC currently has a few short-comings which might make your life as a WSO hair-raising at times.."

Which goes back to my original question..if we can have 8 different planes in the air...3 different types of radars all locking each other up all networked...why not a 2 seater..??..what is so different..?

There's actually a pretty good chance that we'll be getting the famous 'advanced physics model' (remember those Frogfoot screens?) if the add-on materializes. A while ago someone translated a post made by one of ED's developers in a Russian forum and posted it on the official LOMAC boards. Although it wasn't clear and does of course not provide conclusive evidence it does give us a hint.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/6/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=38610606&m=975107963&p=1

Fingers crossed!

Thanks Trident...that was interesting...non-comittial, but interesting..lol

I'd assume that lag is worse when it affects two people which are in the same plane, for example when the guy in the back tries to aim an LGB while the position updates from his pilot's computer produce a zigzag course.

At the same time more stuff needs to be synchronized between both planes, which isn't necessary when pilots only see each other from the outside (like damage, mode switches, and other stuff). This is not exactly rocket science, but as usual the devil's in the detail, and it requires additional programming that sticking to single seaters does not.

And yes I would not want the current AI to fly my plane while I'm sitting in the back

- Caretaker

"At the same time more stuff needs to be synchronized between both planes, which isn't necessary when pilots only see each other from the outside (like damage, mode switches, and other stuff)..."

Janes Longbow 2 could do it...in fact, it could host 4 players in mulit co-op (2 x 2 crew Apache's) with a single CD...and that was, back in 99'...so I have to show my ignorance, and ask again...why not..?

"And yes I would not want the current AI to fly my plane while I'm sitting in the back.."

I had no problem with it in Tornado and Janes F-15...

Me neither - but those did not feature an AI with such suicidal tendencies as in Lock On

To be honest I don't remember those two games too well anyway in that regard, but I don't think the AI actually controlled the plane - sure you could enable autopilot, but otherwise the two crew positions were basically two panels with different displays the player could choose from, while still flying the plane, right...?


Regarding the two-people-in-one-plane multiplayer option, as I said it's not that this cannot be done, and sure it already has been done before (like in the excellent Longbow II, and - although without avionics - in Il2/FB). I only wanted to point out the differences and additional requirements to the current multiplayer options in Lock On, which might already be too much for the devs to consider implementing this.

- Caretaker

Semmern I suggest you have a look at what has just come out in the Strike Fighters forum......

"I only wanted to point out the differences and additional requirements to the current multiplayer options in Lock On"


Acknowledged...

"which might already be too much for the devs to consider implementing this.."

Lets hope not...

- F18 (tactical)
- Tornado/SU 24 (no question about it for me...a dream)
- Mirage 2000 (never simulated, present in a lot of airforce; two version: fighter and fighter-bomber)
- AV 8 (tactical)
- F16 (ok we have F4, but a lot of our Air Force use it).

But first of all they have to solve the problem with Ubisoft or will never see an addon.....i really hope in Oleg Maddox and 1C.

well still dont understand the needs for 2 seats aircraft or in what way it will make better the gameplay.i like more control of everything in the plane. and zero control of the computer from my plane.. buts thats me.

apart for the good looking 2 seat aircrafts are ,the only use i see is in Cooperative Lan/internet play.. when a full scale battle it happening. it will make sense to have someone helping you in the navigation or in the selection of targets when there are too many.. but i think that a wingman will help in the same way. 2 seats aparently is more complex to program in a game,and more work with the AI.. (twice the work.. but you dont get twice the gameplay,maybe half of it..since you share the controls of your plane with another one) i will prefer more that time used to accurately model a brand new modern Aircraft in their cockpit/exteriors and make fully opertional their radar and weapons defense system .with acuracy always in mind. but ofcourse an option to play it easier for the new people. and there are so many to jet fighters to choose. from Americans/Europeans/Frenchs or Russians..that people will love to see, and more...

however if 2seats aircraft request will help this game to be more popular among many simulator Fans. then i am all for it. no matter how good a game it is..or how many features it has,if no one plays it ,it will die very quickly. Polls like this are excelent to bring new ideas to the game.. LONAC sounds cool. it will be nice to have a full scale war with American or Russian squadrons of navy jets with antiship missiles againt the other full equiped navy destroyers that can be operated their desense system in some way . i has always wondered what will happen in the real life , and a game like this should give atleast an idea of how well are prepaired the Russian or American Navy if the were faced and no nuclear armament is used

I remember that post, and I have my fingers crossed. But I think anyone who's been watching ED's work for a long time will know there's a difference between what ED *hope* to deliver and what they *can* deliver. We live in hope though :-)

Andrew McP

WELl what about the F15E i really want this plane....

Ok, let's see: Single-pilot multi-role jet-plane not already flyable in Lomac or other sim, hmmm, what about the Mig-23 ?