homepage Forums SimHQ Community Community Hall Windows 10? Yeah...no thanks. I still like to play old games

But you aren't discussing, you are just machinegunning out cherry picked statements, you find all the nefarious cherry picked lines, you throw out statements you have done zero research on as your ultimate 'proof'. You certainly didn't look for discussion, just a place to dump statements speaking against Windows 10.

You aren't even in a position of asking or inquiring, you just throw down statements and say "this is why I won't use it". Many of these statements I've disproved and you simply just moved on to spitting out the next statement you wanted to hold against Microsoft.

None of that falls under the definition of a discussion.




I can assure you have have nothing to do with Microsoft. Neither through work nor monetary investments. However I still like to keep informed about the software and hardware I use, do my own research and apply a bit of logic. If I don't know enough, I won't just go on a long rant about it. If I wasn't happy with what Microsoft offered, I would just use an alternative -- That simple. Windows is, contrary to popular belief, not the only OS available.

But I'm glad you think I could work for them, simply by keeping myself informed.

I am putting up quotes from various tech articles yes...many of us do that. I don't care if you don't like it... nor do I really care why Microsoft needs my personal info dispatched to them every 5 minutes...I don't need to "research" why it's done...the fact that it's done at all is enough for some.

I'm wondering why...since you keep yourself so informed and research everything...why you said this?



When I posted the exerp from MS's terms of use showing that they do collect personal and identifying info...you were quick to show a link showing why...as if you already knew they do collect that info but posted the mis-information above anyway.

Whatever...if you think Windows 10 is great and don't mind the drawbacks as far as privacy...then good on you. I don't know why you feel the need to crap on those that don't agree.

So you are now the sole arbitrator how others express their thoughts. Cool!

Exactly. You found quotes from articles that pandered to your aversion of Windows 10. Instead of actually looking into any of it yourself, you just relied on extreme cherry picking. "I don't need to "research" why it's done" -- No, you've made that clear.



I was quick because I have an amazing tool called Google (Be careful with this one, they are also by law allowed to read and disclose Email information. They also data mine every one of your searches, tailor search results specifically to you via IP and cookies. Oh and they also log what you do if you use an Android phone.) This topic has been raging ever since the release of Windows 10 and people have spent a lot of time arguing and discussing this very subject. You seem to have joined the wagon very late, thus everything is readily available for me to pass on to you.

And I'm certainly not "crapping on you", however I am taking opposition to the narrow-minded way you are trying to present your "argument". You are almost coming off as one of those crazy 'truthers' you see on the TV in way of presenting your information. I expected more from a person in your position, honestly.

If you wanted a legitimate discussion concerning Microsoft's policies, Windows 10 and your internet privacy in general, where you would be shocked to learn that a lot of your devices collect a lot of data on you, then you would have found I am by no means a fan of Microsoft nor the current course of privacy rules online. However I choose, based on a long pro / con list to deal with it or research how to potentially avoid it. Like it's possible in Windows 10.

And if I don't like what the product offers as whole, I'd pick something else. Simple.



No, words have meanings and definitions. You should look them up. Not everything falls under the word "discussion", which he pointed out. So if we have to play the pedantic game, sure.

Fair enough Sethos.

I will just say that privacy is a big concern with Windows 10...and as you've shown...there are steps you can take to mitigate some of the issues with the links you posted. Setting up host's files and firewall rules might not be everyone's forte' though. I think it's safe to say that Windows 10 "out of the box" so to speak, is set up by default to be very invasive...and not to everyone's liking.

Yes, that we can agree on. Windows 10 is going to live off usage data, which they will gather at every turn possible. Another reason why it was "Free" so to speak, you pay in data. The tools I listed earlier should kill it all completely with the press of a button, if you want to upgrade and not have any data leave your computer.

Pedantic (ie overly concerned with minute details or formalisms), as in telling someone their discussion style doesn�t meet your standards?

But yes, words do have meanings:

From Merriam-Webster:

discussion
noun dis�cus�sion \di-ˈskə-shən\

: the act of talking about something with another person or a group of people : a conversation about something

: a speech or piece of writing that gives information, ideas, opinions, etc., about something



Nothing Force10 posted falls outside the above definition.

I'm betting the EU is going to spank Microsoft's butt soon enough and put an end to Microsoft's data collection over in EuroLand. USAnians need to grow a spine and put a stop to this BS. I would rather pay $150 for the OS than be spied on.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/07/us-eu-ireland-privacy-schrems-idUSKCN0S124020151007

But Microsoft used this DRM software themselves and they should never have allowed it on the OS in the first place. I can clearly remember being bullied by software industry apologists because we cried murder over DRM like Starforce. DRM has stolen money from me is how I see it and it won't go forgotten. I now have zero trust in companies like Microsoft because they have shown they are not to be trusted time and time again. Don't even get me started on Microsoft's GFWL fiasco.

Discussing about whether or not you're properly discussing something indicates you've lost your original point. As soon as it becomes about the people and not the point being discussed, it's over.

In other words, you're not going to convince anyone.


Oh, and my favorite comeback has to be the completely pointless "oh so you get to decide how something is discussed." When you're told your argument sucks (not your point, but rather that you're failing to get it across), coming back with "who made you the police" is STUPID. The point is YOU failed, not that someone else is telling you what to do. If I type arihgadfobnaoghawriophoparghragnranasrngn;oihgario;gharbnaf;bqerioghbaero and you say "I don't understand that", and I reply "Who made you the word police??!" does that make sense? Or perhaps it would be incumbent on me to more properly word what I was trying to convey?

But no, when being told that you've failed to do something properly, first reaction is to strike back at the person who didn't understand you because it's THEIR fault they don't understand you, not YOUR fault that you didn't make yourself understood, of course.

Geez.


On THE ORIGINAL point, there is no winning. If you use a computer OS of ANY type and it has internet communication, you have ZERO privacy. That is the way it is. Any other assumption is fooling yourself. Think you've protected yourself all you want, it's a delusion, anyone who wants to see what you're doing can. Period.
You want otherwise, write your own OS from scratch, all the rest are compromised. To think "because I do these 75 steps I'm safe" is ridiculous and dangerous, because you're not. So either accept it and move on (assume everything you do and say is monitored) or cut yourself off. You can't have it both ways.

If you think your paranoia is justified, get off the internet. If you want to stay on it, accept that people all over the world, in your country and others, have full access. There is no "safe".




The Jedi Master

Sure...if they are motivated...anyone can dive deep enough and see where you've been and what you've been doing on your computer.

So...your saying we should just take any of the diligence out of the equation and just hand Microsoft the keys and allow them 24/7 access to your data...all so we can have an improved OS?

Maybe part of the reason I have an issue with it is my age. I'm getting close to 50 years old, so I remember a time when privacy for yourself and your family was something that was generally something everyone was on board with. Apparently now...folks don't care as long as they have a new toy.

I don't use Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc. but I can see how the privacy concern is a non-issue for this generation. Everyone seems to have this "look at me" complex where they post their every meal, trip, passing thought and bowel movement online for all to see. They are basically used to their life being an open book...and think the rest of us shouldn't have a problem with it either.


<shrug>

By using this web site, using Google, reading the tech posts at other websites, etc., you are revealing a great deal of information about yourself, and no one has to do any digging for it. If you use any email system, particularly an online system (Yahoo Mail, GMail, Hotmail, etc.), you are giving those service providers a great deal of info about you. Your IP address, tracking cookies, search history, articles you've read, email content, all kinds of things are being tracked and/or analyzed, very similar to what Windows 10 is tracking.

I'm older than you and understand your desire for privacy, but if you really want it, the only way would be to start using a generic Linux distro, and stop using the Internet.

Is Google or the like sending my every keystroke...even while not using the internet...to it's data centers every 30 mins?

The problem with the "stop using the internet" comment that seems to be popping up, is that society is now structured where having the internet is almost a requirement...weather you want it or not. My kids are both in college now and some courses will only accept Google docs as a form of work to turn in.

I suppose it's just easier to not make waves then call them out on this intrusive BS and try to get it changed for the better.

No company will stop doing it because EVERY company is doing it.
It would be a disadvantage to stop. They can't market it because that would admit they were doing it before while accusing their competitors of doing it, which they can't prove. I'm old enough to know that no company will stop doing something that isn't illegal because having a good image is secondary to stock prices.

The only possibility is a gov't regulation forbidding or restricting it. That doesn't work for 3 reasons:
One--people complain about regulations enough already
Two--there are already a large number in place that this doesn't violate because they admit it (if you look hard enough in the right places, which is how most of this is known in the first place)
Three--sometimes even the gov't admits "that would be way too hypocritical for us to say it shouldn't be done".

So yeah, when no company is going to stop because it increases their profits, and they're all publicly traded, and all their investors want more profits, privacy be damned, and the gov't is no position to mandate otherwise, acceptance or avoidance is all that is left. Any attempt to stop this will be viewed as a left-wing socialist clamp down on corporations/freedoms/speech/blah blah blah.

Anything else is a dream that will stay unrealized.




The Jedi Master

Technically, yes they are. Google (via Google search, Gmail, Android OS, Google+, YouTube accounts etc.) is sifting through all your data, also when you are sleeping and basically creating a profile for you, plus using your data as part of a bigger data collection network. All your emails, all your data is constantly used to target ads, target search terms and find out about your usage pattern. So they are logging everything you've written, writing and will write within the confines of the Google services -- Even when using an Android phone. Why do you think they are pushing internet into people's homes, internet so desirable and fast? Because they are further expanding their potential data collection network.

As mentioned, every major company will collect data about you in every way possible. Usage data and person tracking is digital gold.

There are two futures:

The gov't knows and tracks everything about you in order to *insert whatever reason you want here*. (left wing paradise/right wing nightmare)
The corporations know and track everything about you in order to sell you stuff. (right wing paradise/left wing nightmare)

There's also the possibility that both will occur simultaneously, of course, however given that people in gov't jobs generally speaking don't need to work hard to keep them while private sector jobs will easily disappear if you don't deliver, I'd bet on the corporations having the leg up on the gov't as opposed to the other way around. They have to be more ruthless to survive, the gov't has no competition.




The Jedi Master

I understand what both of you are saying...honest!

I just wish there was an "endpoint" to this. Something where a govt. or oversight committee can draw a line of what's over the top as far as data collection goes. As you said Jedi...everyone is doing it...but do they have to keep one-upping each other on how far they push the envelope?

I think what you guys aren't acknowledging is that we're the frogs slowing being boiled to death here, as they slowly chip away at our privacy and freedoms...who knows where we'll be in 20 years? Possibly cameras being installed in our houses for "our own good"...and you will have folks, much like yourselves...defending that point as being ok since you've slowly become accustomed to having your every movement and action catalogued, indexed and referenced.

Force10, I understand what you're saying about the frogs, but in the case of Windows 10, it's not really any different than what's been going on, so it just seems a bit late to be upset or try to change it. You've been giving out your info for a long time now. My comment about not using the Internet wasn't a suggestion, it was pointing out that you just can't get away from it.

If it's any consolation, Microsoft is fighting the government on some data issues:
http://www.insidesources.com/why-the-mic...-harbor-ruling/

You're telling me...this has been going on with other Operating Systems?:




All text typed on the keyboard is stored in temporary files, and sent (once per 30 mins)? This is happening in Windows 7 when I'm typing offline?

I don't think so. I've never heard of any Operating System logging every keystroke (offline or online) and then sending it home to a data collection center.

First, that analysis does not appear to be representative of the final product. Someone did some direct analysis of what Windows 10 was doing, and couldn't really find the traffic described. They felt it was most likely something being done only in the open beta versions for development purposes.

http://blog.robseder.com/2015/08/16/whats-the-real-deal-with-windows-10-and-privacy/

I'll add a bit more detail here, from a post he put in after the article:

Lastly, to speak directly to the keylogger issue: every reference I could find says that the keyboard cache is stored in: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Diagnosis\etlogs\autologger\*.etl � in fact, I did a �dir C:\ProgramData\*.etl /s /b� and found many files under USOShared � but looking at those files, they aren�t big enough, and with being semi-readable, none appear to have anything interesting in them.

So the bottom line for me, I couldn�t confirm some pieces of this � but just finding those Privacy Statements cleared up a lot for me. Microsoft TELLS you it�s absolutely going to take every search you make, correlate it with you personally, and store it. So those things are confirmed. The keylogger part, I was already dubious. That would mean that Microsoft would capture people�s usernames/passwords, and worse, when you connect into work and type intellectual property for your employer, Microsoft would be gathering those keystrokes � which would be akin to breaking into your company, indirectly. That would be a legal nightmare. I can�t imagine a scenario where the value of those keystrokes would be worth the class-action lawsuit! Plus, I couldn�t find any sign of the cached files, not the network traffic to prove it.

So, yes, MS is gathering search data, etc., much like Google does, but the keylogger seems to not be there.

There have been articles on OS X where it gathers data typed in, Android doing it, plus tracking locations, etc., so yes, other OSes have been gathering info you type, your voice searches in Siri via iOS, etc.