homepage Forums Air Combat & Civil Aviation IL-2: Great Battles IL-2: Great Battles - Extended Discussions Ouch

Maybe you should read the whole sentence you quoted before reacting, maybe you would be less sick.
I don't know if your expectations are realistic or not, you didn't detailed them. But I'm sure that every sim dreamer has different expectations (the diversity is quite high in this crowd), some of them being maybe realistic, and some of them maybe not. And the sum of every expectation of every sim dreamer is for sure completely unrealistic....
One (and I don't say All) of the problem is that lots of sim enthusiasts think that their expectations are mandatory and every other optional.

And I never said that the dev choices were the best (I was the first to criticize the unlocks). In fact, my own expectations aren't met (yet)... but I don't see as tragic enough to spam all forums with drama screams and mourner's cries.
I don't even think that forums are representative of sim enthusiasts expectations, they are just representative of the expectations of the most talkative of them.
But for a sim foreigner reading the forums (all of them), one of the conclusion he would draw is: combat flight sim is a dead genre and what you can see on the forums is the last convulsions of it.

I know these words will trigger a flak barrage, but maybe some will think about a little bit.
I'm running away before the first shells are fired. Have fun...

You mean like the posts made by 1c/777?

Are you implying that people that want something changed should not provide the necessary feedback to convey their dissatisfaction?
I hate when people say this. On what metric other than sales can a product be graded on if not the most talkative of the people using it? With this are you saying 777/1C should listen to the silent majority that aren't saying anything? How would that provide any useful feedback?

"Squeaky wheel gets the oil"...or seemingly from your previous actions and sentiments, "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down"

+1 no one wants to take responsibility for bad decisions, what they write or say. No one will admit that they made a mistakes and own it like a responsible person. It is a product of this not me world and that everyone has to be so politically correct and don't say anything that is not the company line or you are a bully or a hater out to destroy them. It is so pathetic, but then there is always the, well if we just throw more money at them and support them, they will right the Ship. What ever happened to just earning respect and doing a good job to receive praise for your work?

S!Blade<><

I can't speak for everyone�but if you're using the IL-2 name�I was sort of expecting�a flight sim.

Joke was on me I guess�.

No, I'm not


No, I'm not

Then what did you mean when you threw blanket-hyperbole statements like "drama screams" and "mourner's cries" out there and referenced "the most talkative of them" as if it's incorrect to listen to feedback from those that give it, simply because there are others that choose to say nothing?

Actually I agree with Rama. Constructive feedback is good, whilst constant ranting (drama screams)and the assertions that the sim is dead (mourners cries) is just drivel. Say your piece in a respectful manner and move on, man. You realize it's just the same six or eight of you guys feeding into and trolling yourselves eh. Kinda funny.

I did detail them and the diversity is really not that vast among simmers when it comes to a SP experience. Just about everyone agrees that they simply want an immersive, deep campaign. It doesn't have to be dynamic, but it could be.

Yet, that aspect keeps getting skipped over. And the only excuse that's ever given is "there's not enough money."

Don't believe me? Go start a poll asking what's most important in a flight sim and I guarantee a good SP campaign would come in the top 3.

You can pretend it's just some talkative minority that wants that but that doesn't make it true.

Constructive feedback works great with these guys, right? I mean a poll on the official forum was posted showing disdain for a certain feature. What was done? Oh, yes, a rant from the developer saying this is how the game should be played, so like it or leave it.

Very constructive.

You can call whoever you want trolls. Just like someone can call you and Rama blind fanboys. In the end it does not matter. The game is what it is. No amount of bickering/complaining/praising etc will change that. Its been proven already.

"I hate when people say this. On what metric other than sales can a product be graded on if not the most talkative of the people using it? With this are you saying 777/1C should listen to the silent majority that aren't saying anything? How would that provide any useful feedback?"


There's another metric that involves sales, those who have sold the product because it isn't something they should have bought to begin with. So even if you add up all the sales to date there remains that unknown quantity of those who have walked away from the product.

LOLZ I know right? How silly of us to keep discussing a hobby we enjoy and are able to converse with other like-minded individuals about nuances and happenings in the industry.

BTW, all feedback is constructive in some way or another. Simply labeling it some proverbial hyperbole or "drivel" just because it doesn't align with your personal opinion or because you're getting tired of reading it (but still choose to anyway) doesn't change that or make it any more/less effective.

And actually I agree with you Leaf, Constructive feedback is good, but Constructive feedback contains the Truth about a product, and its Developers, both good and not so good, not just spinning what ifs or just wait till they.... . The same few go on each of the main Forums and spin the Same Dream,(I will name them if you want me to) the core is good, so suck it up, encourage more new customers to buy the game so that more money is thrown at them(1C/777), don't point out concerns or dislikes, give them your support, respect, trust the plan they have and just wait until they make BOS a Great Sim because it is the only WWII sim in Development and you will kill the Genre otherwise and Loft will shut the game down in December(you do realize this is what they say over & over & over don't you? Remeber, you said say your piece and move on man, tell that to them). My question to you Leaf is, do you realize that the few people that come on here and other Forums and repeat the Truth about, the nice graphics and working core, which are big positives for BOS, the limiting preset graphics options, the Xgrind unlocks, the very limited difficulty adjustments, the completely shallow SP & Campaign(that is being kind), the mediocre DM & Hollywood DM Graphics and the Dodgy, biased FMs on some of the planes, are doing so because they truly have passion about flight sims and want to see a truly good Sim that is worthy of the IL2 name, but they are not willing to just role over and say well if that is the best you can do and promise to make it better we trust you. No, 1C/777 had 2 years to produce something with the money they were entrusted, and they released a sub par product, which they refuse to change back to a more enjoyable(less than perfect) format that over 1,000 Forum members voted on to let 1C/777 know what they wanted and enjoyed. Also the above mentioned people similarly troll the threads just looking for the chance to spin the happy message that BOS will be the greatest sim ever if we just shut up and close our eyes and ears and mouths and let 1C/777 work their magic. Do you know how absolutely sickening that is to read day in and day out? I can't stand when people lie to me in the first place, but when they just think that if they write it over & over & over that the people will start to believe it and that this changed perception will actually make BOS better. The Truth is that BOS is a mediocre game at best and that 1C/777 are miserable at PR(at least in the last 2 months) and have been exposed as untruthful by their own words, and still they refuse to own any of it. If they truly loved flight sims and had half of the passion for the game as they say they do then they would have heard the voice of their customers and at least, at least changed the 2 things that started this whole debacle in the first place. But no, I have read nothing but insults, defensive posturing and poor poor pitiful us(1c/777) this business is so stressful and we are not being treated fairly. Please, give me a break, if they were hurting half as badly as they say they are, then they would have reached out to the Community and made a few simple gestures to reclaim some of the approval they have lost(that support was there before the locks). The only thing that has changed is more time has gone by and we are now hearing how we (the community) deserves sub par flight sims because of our disloyalty and lackluster support of the 1C/777 teams efforts. Well my question is this, Then how did Loft know that a majority of the BOS Community was going to be disloyal and unappreciative of BOS in advance? He or they, must be clairvoyant because they delivered the sub par, lackluster sim(BOS) that he(Loft) so aptly described in his PR post to the Community this week. The only reason I keep answering posts like yours and the aforementioned posts is because I can't stand to read of the candy coating of the good and inflating the few good things in BOS to try to overshadow the GLARING shallowness of this game. Remember, trolling can go both ways, and as long as people like to paint the truth as lies, then I will feel compelled to once again state the obvious, the actual Truth about BOS with the lies stripped away. You can polish a turd to a fine luster(see Myth Busters), but in the end it is still just a turd. With 1C/777 doing little other than bug squashing and hurriedly readying the "not super intuitive" FMB and throwing a misdirection PR campaign to help us feel sorry for them, it looks like we are simply stuck with a turd that they refuse to even polish? I have attached no attitude in this writing, please do not attach any to it yourself. Thank you.

S!Blade<><

S!Blade<><

Well said...





Yes. Yes it is. It is what it is. While it may not be what many of us.. myself included hoped for .. and while it may have many aspects to it that are disappointing to say the least .. we do know that some of what is missing in BoS is still forthcoming. We do not know how far out it is .. but we know it is forthcoming. We also know that there are many aspects of BoS that are enjoyable.. regardless to what some may say because a lot of folks are enjoying the snot out of BoS right now .... because it is what it is.

When I consider that 90% of all this.. and lets just be honest here.. yup it is absolutely true that some folks from 1CGS put their feet all up in there mouths.. flossing with shoelaces... Yessiree.. We know that and it is undeniable.. I am talking about that too when I say "All of this.".

None of this would be happening had it not been for the unlocks. If the unlocks were not there.. and the sim was released as is.. well..No ME? Yeah but it's coming!! No skin templates? Yeah.. but they are coming!! No Dserver??!! Yeah .. but it is coming..! Had the unlocks not been there there would have been much more patience exhibited with this sim from many many circles.

This one thing... Even the graphics presets as bad and annoying as they are can't hold a rage candle to the unlocks.. well... maybe a rage match.. but you get my point.

Would any one have found out about "the business practices of 1CGS" (not that they are any different from any number of game developers... ) had there been no unlocks? Would the reputation of so many have been tarnished.. because believe me.. it isn't only the "outed" that got the hairy eyeballs.. had it not been for the unlocks? All this drama.. all this righteous indignation over a feature in a game... and mind you a game that as I said.. for many costs beer money. Some folks spend more money on the range in a month than they spent on BoS.

Just putting it in perspective.

Offering feed back to a developer about dissatisfaction with a product or one of it's features is one thing.. but that is not what the past month has been. This has been something else whether or not folks see it or want to admit it or not.

As I said in my last post.. you guys can do what you want to do. I ave 4 sims on my PC that I intend to enjoy a great deal over the next 6+ months.. I come to these forums and post and do all the stuff I do here because I just like it.. I like sims.. I like planes.. I really like some of the great folks I have met over the past 14 years.. and there are not many venues where I can go to discuss this stuff.. where people even give a toot... Where else can I go? Where else can any of us go to talk about any of this stuff? How many of you have talked to relatives or co workers about this briefly.. and it is always briefly .. seen the eyes glaze over ..or that look.. It happens about 80% of the time when talking to non simmers .. and in fact for the most part we don't even talk about it much to non simmers because of that.

Why bother?

So we get this new sim.. that is really disappointing to a lot of folks on many levels.. but taken objectively.. without the emotions of what we were expecting.. it still has some really nice stuff in it.. but .. it is missing some really important stuff!

So how has this campaign to get the devs to respond dammit been going? Did we get the unlocks removed? Did it hasten the ME or the Dserver? Maybe they are too busy.. Maybe they said WTF !! Yes yes we know.. they should have seen it coming... buit it is what it is.. Did any of this make people go... "Wow what a great hobby !! I think I'll try that! Seems like a fantastic place to be!" or did they go "DAYUM!! Talk about TOXIC!"

Maybe if we did more of this



and less of this


Things might happen a little faster or we might actually be able to find some of the other stuff that is worthwhile.

If that doesn't work and we are still then perhaps or or might pass the time a bit better.. anything but all this negativity.

In short: "This game sucks, sure...but let's quit complaining and just shut up and play because *I* like it."

No thanks.

Don't let all this give you high blood pressure, Bearcat

I'd only like to add that, having been a founder almost from the first days of EA, I watched with excitement the development and read with interest what was changing and being fixed. It was cool to see how the Developers were (it seemed) trying to make the wishes of the established ww2 combat flight sim.community come to fruition.

My irritation started after the months of development when without apparent warning (unless you go back through the fine detail as it was mentioned many, many months ago, very briefly), they decided to bring in the unlocks and also lock the graphics settings. These features for the time that all the testing and chat and enthusiasm and bringing friends in, were dropped like a sledgehammer on a snail shell. Bang! This way or no way!

As founders we helped test and shape this software, getting it going in the way we know we liked and would appreciate. Then someone slams a roadblock in place, puts a diversion sign up and says " sorry the Disneyland Sandbox is closed, please go to the local park...it's just as good and has all the safety equipment in place because we want to make sure there is no way you can do anything we don't want you to that may be against our rules!"

Effectively we were led to the streets of Gold and then put in the area where only tarmac exists.

I DO agree with Bearcat. This software looks great and it's another addition to the flight sim genre which we should be happy to have, it just seems that at every turn the developers want to (apparently) destroy their own product by not appealing to the core of this genre. I see that they want to be as successful as WT, but I don't get how they intend to do that?

Releasing the software as it was makes no sense to me, locking down the features, not having features ready, in effect releasing an unfinished product. I'm not making comparisons with other Sims, I am talking about this alone.

Most games to market in the $50-60 region....this was $90 for realistically a small amount of aircraft ($60 for even less aircraft), one map, no dserver, no fmb, locked features in Multiplayer, locked graphics options, xp that still doesn't work properly (not counting on occasions, so wasting time that you shouldn't have to to unlock multiplayer features by playing Single Player)......and much more.

The thing is when I hear forum users say, "Don't worry its on its way", I don't really care that it is, it's the fact that the software was released (as much is too often these days) in an unfinished state and it irritates me. We sat and worked with the devs. when we paid into Early Access so that we could offer our experience to help shape and direct this to the market it would truly be appreciated by....and then in the last few weeks before release.....BAM.....thanks for the advice, but actually this isn't for you but a bigger market.....but we just don't know how or what we are going to do to capture it....so we're making a SP campaign that is like Call of Duty...but whereas that only unlocks levels in Single Player, ours is going to have to be played in Single Player to unlock Multiplayer features.

I honestly don't see the sense, reasoning or commercial intelligence behind such a feature. As I said, it seems they want to cause there own problems by not listening to their customer fan-base. It's truly confusing.

I guess (yes..I...guess...I don't 'know') at this moment in time, that they wish they had held back another couple-of-months and tested the unlocks and locked graphic options before release, but sadly that window is now closed.

I remember when another Sim was being made, there were promises that 'this feature is being worked on, that fix is being done, this doesn't work but it will, we're working on it', etc, etc. Everything we are hearing now. Next we heard that there wasn't enough money to fix the bugs, so development had started on an expansion which would include all the fixes...then it wouldn't be a patch/fix at-all but standaslone...then it was both....then the studio was shut down.

Personally I am waiting to see all the features being released that were and are detailed by the developers. Only then will it be possible to truly know how the future looks.

Either way, I have BoS, I purchased it as a Founder and I can wait to see what happens, as I did with another flight sim. If it fails, I still have BoS. If it succeeds, I still have BoS. Time will tell.

Cheers, MP

Just my thoughts.

He's got a point... and I'm more or less starting to feel the same way. I've tried not to feel that way of course, but there is that nagging feeling that we have been stitched up...

Believe me.. my blood pressure is fine. I have enough real stuff to be concerned about than to let my entertainment give me an aneurysm.

This is what I actually expect to happen at this point. The only difference will be whereas the head of the last studio apologised, the head of this studio will blame the customers...