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1, 2, 3 Bored It looks so much like Shanghainese housewives fighting over a promotional bag of rice  Cheers, Slug
"Major Burns isn't saying much of anything, Sir. I think he's formulating the answer..." - Radar - M*A*S*H
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LukeFF, how is loki's post history relevant to the discussion/fact that Loft and Jason just damned the whole community to a future of poorly made products in an Internet temper tantrum of company destroying proportions? Because he has a history of being hostile towards the development team, so it doesn't surprise me he would only present one part of what happened. Ok, since it seems you're constantly on the opposite end of that spectrum and defending seemingly every dev action against majority opinion and feedback I would expect you to tell me what other part of the story justifies Loft's statements damning this paying community to a genre of low quality products while deeming us a waste of time.
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Death threats and promises of pain coming in over the PM/ email system? just the act of the 'everything for nothing crowd", leftists, shallow end of the gene pool inhabitants, utter knuckle dragging neanderthals... Crikey, try moderating on a politics forum - you guys ain't seen nothing.
In any case, those actions are totally unacceptable
Guys - in relation to the unacceptable behaviour of the few... in days past, it was (by your view) quite acceptable to employ that kind of behaviour in destroying another sim. You should have known what could be expected. The 'useful idiots', hold no allegiance.
In present days, you can't lash out at the community and then have the PR come through saying it was only to a small segment, only to see again another lash out at the entire community - it doesn't wash.
If you're building (and selling it as) a sim to make bucks and then turn that into a game, then qualify your statement of that by saying you're being paid to take things very seriously... you're totally in the wrong genre, you're focus is in, very much, the wrong place. (I work in the entertainment industry, and projects conducted along those lines fold very quickly).
A genuine question... What is the point of having unlocks, supposedly for orientation purposes, if the player can just "autopilot" their way through them?
Last edited by Wolf_Rider; 11/17/14 07:11 AM.
�Hypocrisy in anything whatever may deceive the cleverest and most penetrating man, but the least wide-awake of children recognizes it, and is revolted by it, however ingeniously it may be disguised.�
Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
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Bucksnort, I would agree with you if your problem (4fps) is the norm. Is it? I dunno, but I don't have problems with both BoS and DCS. However, the loss of fps is not really a graphic preset problem; I would presume you'd have the same problem no matter which preset you chose, right? If so, I think they broke something else rather than just presets. No, in my case I had BoS running in the 45 - 55 fps range with Custom Graphics and everything wide open except one or two things. I can't remember what I had turned off that didn't get along with my AMD 7850 2GB card, but when they eliminated Custom Graphics I got an immediate slide show at all altitudes. By going to Low graphics, AA off, and FPS Limiter set to 30 I now still have a slide show on the runway up to about 500 ft altitude and then it smooths out to something around 15 to 20 fps. So I don't play BoS at all now.
With regards to unlocks, from what I've heard, it isn't hard to get them so what's the big deal?
The unlocks are "the story" for the campaign. If playing to win the Young Pilots Badge and similar awards, plus bombs and skins, then go for it. It is entirely kiddie oriented and has nothing to do with the way things were in WWII (they didn't withhold bombs from pilots until they got experience points). That's what ruins the campaign for many single players. MP guys hate the unlocks, but once they've knocked them out, they can hopefully move on to MP servers set up the way they like to play, but for Single Players this hokey campaign is all there is. Makes you feel about 12 years old when you play it. I've said this before, but I like the analogy. Most folks can join their country's military at the age of 18 years old and operate complex military systems. At the age of 17 you can get a pilot's license in the U.S. The BoS Campaign is designed for maturity well below that, probably about 10 to 12 years old. That's why there are almost no rave reviews about the BoS Campaign as its absolutely sophomoric.
Dogfighting is what you do "after" you drop your bombs and blow something up! Can you say "JABO!" 
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One more...
I still see a lot of "this is the only WWII sim being supported...". I'm sorry, if this is a sim, then the WWII sim genre is already dead and died at the demise of CoD.
�Hypocrisy in anything whatever may deceive the cleverest and most penetrating man, but the least wide-awake of children recognizes it, and is revolted by it, however ingeniously it may be disguised.�
Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
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People want to have the "unlocks" or "field mods" or whatever you want to call them without having to gain XP in the campaign, and they want the graphics options back. Both of these things were available that way in the early access.
Are these unrealistic expectations? Did I say they were?
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One more...
I still see a lot of "this is the only WWII sim being supported...". I'm sorry, if this is a sim, then the WWII sim genre is already dead and died at the demise of CoD. Can you tell me what defines something as a sim for you, or what kind of sim you are looking for?! Of course BoS is a game, same with most other "applications" that label themselves as "simulations" that we have access to. The closest to "pure" sims might be things like DCS, VBS, Steel Beast Pro PE, X-Plane, etc.. Gamers sometimes give such "pure" sims labels like dry, little/no immersion, lack of and/or limited content, � For a combat flight simulator there are many "game indicators", things like experience, unlocks, ranks and medals, squadrons and squad members/management, paint jobs, campaigns, milestone/success messages, and many more; I am tempted to add "moddability" to this list as well, at least for the core sim content� Such game features may serve different purposes, (artificial) goals for long-term play, immersion of being involved in WW2, accessibility, � Interesting to note is that most of the "game indicating" features are not directly affecting the core flight sim as such, but are just part of a framework it is packaged in. The main defining aspect of a (combat) flight simulation is the 3D environment, the world, plane model, flight model, damage model, controls, weapons, the behavior of friends and enemies, sounds, etc... Also not to neglect the possibility to execute real world maneuvers and tactics and achieve realistic results. Basically anything that is directly linked to the actual flying experience. I am not a pilot and not an expert on the subject, neither on the technology underneath nor the planes modelled, so today I can't really judge it beyond the point that my experience in-game is believable to me. A mandatory sim and important game feature missing in BoS is the mission editor, but according to some posts on their forum they intent to remedy this deficiency in the next months. we will have to see whether it is the same as in RoF, or maybe more accessible, or whatever they else come up with. The unlocks are another restriction. To me it is a minor issue, as I got the game post-release and I had yet to familiarize with all the planes. Thanks to how the campaign mode is structured I could do that familiarization also directly in the campaign and do the unlocks en-passant. Took me three weeks, not on autopilot. "Role-playing" I can just assume to be a n00b pilot that just passed basic class authorization in its standard configuration before the transfer to the field unit. Arrived there, I first have to prove myself before getting access to other stuff, or to get my own paint job. Granted, that does not explain why I am always the flight leader  I also see hope it has a kind of positive impact on future MP � I eventually got tired of n00bs that just downloaded the RoF Free2Play client and immediately joined the Syndicate full realism server, asking how to start the engine of an Albatros DVa. Yes, it will not get rid of those, but just maybe the unlocks are an incentive to do some offline training. Of course, I can understand that our fellow beta-testers and founders, playing the game for half a year or more, may see that slightly different  It kind of reminds me of the time when they released a RoF patch that required the players to start a beta career at the lowest rank and working his way up the ranks until he would become the commander of the squad.
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it seems, you've answered for me/ us... almost
"I also see hope it has a kind of positive impact on future MP � I eventually got tired of n00bs that just downloaded the RoF Free2Play client and immediately joined the Syndicate full realism server, asking how to start the engine of an Albatros DVa. Yes, it will not get rid of those, but just maybe the unlocks are an incentive to do some offline training."
that is no longer a credible argument, when the entire process can be fast forwarded through... I mean, c'mon seriously now - I asked an honest question regarding this not more than 4 posts ago.
On other sims you get, that's life... but that is what community spirit is about, its what builds further spirit... just copping "RTFM" sucks. FMB builds further community spirit and that is what two other developers hope/ hoped for... the user community to kick in and create further, the universe - the sandbox, user creativity to take over and propel the venture forward (and based on that, further mods, along with further developer input for enhancement.
Are you really going to put a game out there, call it a sim, and not offer further chance of user input to propel it forward? except to say; "its on the way"... that's no better than a government saying "we'll honour our election pledge and what we now promise, if you vote us in again at the next election... just vote us in again and we promise we'll honour it", how many times have we seen that?? Do the developers really think some are so thick as to fall that?
Last edited by Wolf_Rider; 11/17/14 10:41 AM.
�Hypocrisy in anything whatever may deceive the cleverest and most penetrating man, but the least wide-awake of children recognizes it, and is revolted by it, however ingeniously it may be disguised.�
Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
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Not really, as what I say is that in its core BoS is still a simulation. Of course it is packed in the shell of a game, as much as so many other applications in the sim genre, e.g. all the other IL2s, RoF, the OFP/ArmA series, the Silent Hunter series, etc. And a game is what most people are looking for, seeing so many asking for a career mode, as unrealistic as it may be to promote through 5 ranks and earn 10 medals in three or four months. But it is still a combat flight simulation, a more or less realistic representation of WW2 air combat, and I think you can't really deny that. Edit: My post above is actually a copy from a post that in the end I didn't post, ~2 weeks ago in a response to a post from WernerVoss; I preserved it for the future use, as this accusation of BoS not being a sim is popping up regularly, so now it "hit" you Edit2: The FMB is expected to come, maybe still in this year, as posted by Jason two days ago: Mission EditorThe ME will be released this year (90% sure) and it will be the same format as the one for ROF. Very powerful, but not super intuitive. No time or resources to re-vamp the interface right now.
Last edited by WhoCares; 11/17/14 10:54 AM.
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Whichever way you try to put it... it is a game, not a simulation and you have said as much yourself.
Your PR is pretty good, but not good enough... what people are looking for, what the fans are looking for, is usability - not wowablility
edit to edit 2... yes, read my thoughts on "just vote us in again"
Last edited by Wolf_Rider; 11/17/14 11:01 AM.
�Hypocrisy in anything whatever may deceive the cleverest and most penetrating man, but the least wide-awake of children recognizes it, and is revolted by it, however ingeniously it may be disguised.�
Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
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No, I say it is a game and a simulation. I don't understand why people consider those mutally exclusive?!
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Flight sim game... I've been in real life aircraft simulators, and this is definitely a flight sim game.
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For what it's worth in this forum: I love this game.. sim .. whatever you prefer to call it. In all of this flame war, crazy outbursts from all involved, hurt egos etc etc, I just gotta say that. Of course I am not pleased with the "unlocks", but I love the [insert your label of BoS here] even so. Had to be said.
Last edited by F19_Klunk; 11/17/14 12:06 PM.
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Campaign in BoS has nothing to do with the real Battle of Stalingrad.
Nothing.
It's just XP grind.
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Yep... I'm lurking regular, but not playing it regular. I turn up and fly it after a patch to ensure that the patch has taken, and then only for 15-20 mins or so... then I get fed up of the grind and sack it. As to the unlocks. haven't unlocked even a third of what is available. I completed the campaign after it was released, just to say I'd done it... It sure looks lovely and there are some fun moments, but it has no soul, it is not immersive and doesn't make me feel as if I'm part of it all, so again, I sacked it. I'm still waiting for a third party to get involved and give us a proper campaign, then I may be back to fly on a regular basis... As for the gaming politics and general mayhem recently... well, the developers haven't done themselves any favours is all I'll say 
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People want to have the "unlocks" or "field mods" or whatever you want to call them without having to gain XP in the campaign, and they want the graphics options back. Both of these things were available that way in the early access.
Are these unrealistic expectations? Did I say they were? No, which leads me to wonder what expectations that the community has that you find unrealistic.
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"No, which leads me to wonder what expectations that the community has that you find unrealistic."
IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Stalingrad is a historically based game. It is the next generation of the legendary Sturmovik series of WWII flight-sim games.
Robust Single-Player Campaign that features a challenging and innovative AI system and includes an extensive in-game achievement system
Realistic graphics and unique visual effects: clouds, lightning, tracers, explosions and huge smoke plumes - all of them fully realized to
recreate the aerial combat scenery
Flexible Quick Mission mode that allows you to create your own custom combat scenario in just a couple of minutes
Classic Multiplayer gameplay with dedicated player controlled servers with your favorite settings for team battles and dogfight duels
Take your pick mate
Paul
Mae hen wlad fy nhadau yn annwyl i mi,
Gwlad beirdd a chantorion, enwogion o fri;
Ei gwrol ryfelwyr, gwladgarwyr tra m�d,
Dros ryddid collasant eu gwaed.
Gwlad, gwlad, pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad.
Tra m�r yn fur i'r bur hoff bau,
O bydded i'r hen iaith barhau.
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Lets keep a couple of things in mind here:
1. The team that is bringing you BoS is very small (about 2 dozen total) and they started out as a bunch of flight simmers who took it to the next level. There is no PR department or even a PR professional, just a bunch of simmers trying to make a go of letting our hobby continue into the future.
2. This specific dust up was about the Freetrak hack no longer being updated by the freetrak hackers and being broken with the latest update to Trakir. The Russian side of the forum went full bore nuclear. Loft received death threats and threats of violence to his family. How long would you last before you pushed back?
This is it guys, the last prop driven combat flight sim that is going to be made for a very long time. Why? Well who the hell would be stupid enough to spend their life giving this community anything? Not me. Look at some of the post here that attack the developers for their country of origin! If this kind of vitrol were heaped on Americans for being American the response would be tenfold. I don't think a single anti Jason post has attacked his citizenship or blamed any decision he has made, or post he has made on that fact. To do so would be idiotic. Yet how many anti Russian attacks do we see here? One of the things I used to like about this community was that it seemed more mature, more reasoned and reasonable than other gaming communities. Not any more. Give me the teenyboppers any day.
ps If the worst thing about this sim is the unlocks, and it is, then this is one hellofa sim!!! I agree Mike. Look.. what Loft said was stupid. It wasn't the first time either.. let's not forget the take my marbles and go home thing... but, and this is not to excuse the behavior at all, taking flak for poor decisions is one thing but any one who can read can see that in many ways this has gone so far over the top as to be mind boggling. You would think that 1CGS hacked into the bank accounts of all the dissatisfied.. when in reality for many of the folks who bought into the pre order .. the money they spent adds up to beer money or dinner and a movie with the family. It certainly does not warrant some of the intense rhetoric that no one in this thread may have spouted .. but is certainly out there. Well said, Don. For me, and I would suspect many, many others these are the two biggies: Graphics Presets - used to have advanced graphics options early on in the EA, they decided to take that away and lock them into 4 preset values - their reasoning, we want you to see the game as we want you to see it. A PC game in 2014 that offers no ability to customize graphics options, just mind boggling to me. Not to mention how this broke triple monitor support for the guys that have that.
Singer Player - QMB and Campaign - nothing but a power up grinding XP fest, unlock airplanes, unlock mods, unlock airfields even. No role playing , progression through a career, etc. ( heck even just a career similar to ROF has would have been way better). Imho, no depth whatsoever for single player for me. I have DCS, RoF, WOFF, and of course the older IL-2's including CloD running smoothly between 45 to 55 fps (or better) on my system. BoS was the same until they eliminated Custom Graphics settings. Now BoS is a stuttering mess for me on its lowest graphics settings. 1CGS built some nice planes and graphics overall, but fell on their face in turning those into a playable game. I hope they turn it around, but why would folks be happy with something that is unplayable and/or uninteresting for many single players? It should be heralded as a success just because it has prop driven planes and is set in WWII even if you have no interest in playing it (or can't play it because it won't run smoothly)? A great game grabs you and makes you stay up too late at night. The advice of those who seem to like BoS is that we should just buck up and choke it down...huh?  There have been other WWII flight sims that have bombed in the past, and I'm afraid BoS is heading down that path. And any potential future developer of flight sims watching this fiasco won't be blaming the community for what has happened. The 400 lbs gorilla in the room is that we all know that a graphically updated version of IL-2 1946 would have been a smashing success, but instead we got this avant garde vision of a game that almost no one can really explain. Those are the main issues.. and that is one reason why.. for me even though I do not like it .. it is not a deal breaker and not worth me ditching the sim. Not only that .. and I don't know.. maybe this is just me.. but when I bought into CoD .. and even WoP .. and they wound up being what they were and I dropped them.. I dropped them and moved on. I said what I had to say and that was it . This was why I had no idea of all the drama going on at bannanville until I was able to run it and went there for some help years later. I spent my time and energy on what did float my boat. I didn't go all over the sim community repeating my displeasure over and over again.. but like I said.. that was me. Fortunately in the case of CoD it became a moot point since eventually it did do what I needed it to do to enjoy it and to finally after 3 years get my money's worth out of it... With WoP that never happened.. The last highlighted part of the above is what is most bewildering to me in this entire situation looking at the bigger picture because in reality that was all we needed in the first place.. even when CoD was launched. I am completely dumbfounded as to why no developer since 1CMG has managed to get it as right as they did with IL2. Not even 1CMG themselves with CoD. I never understood why no developer since has followed that same formula. Options- In difficulty and CEM scalability from pure arcade to as real as it can get on that platform with multiple fine points in between covering views, sounds and control assignments as in multiple axis support for any and every function that had a knob, wheel or a lever and every function assignable.. even if it does not have a clickable cockpit. . Options-In terms of how you can play.. SP,MP,offline,online,coop and being able to mix live and AI pilots on both sides of a mission with dedicated server, peer to peer or developer run servers with server side settings for difficulty levels and skin options.. Options-In terms of how you can configure the sim to run on YOUR RIG .. not some cookie cutter presets. Options-For user input, which IMO is crucial to the longevity of any sim. Meaning a well designed and powerful Mission Builder, a system of creating skins that does not involve sending them into anyone to be "approved". I could probably go on.. but I am sure that most of you are in agreement. I just do not understand why no developer since has released a sim that can do all that.. from RoF and every product in between up to BoS.. It just makes no sense to me because that is what works. That is the only reason why IL2 is still being flown by so many still today. Ghost, I did not say "support the flight sim dev no matter what." I am saying support them if they make a good product. If I am too busy immersed in the flight sim, I don't care if they have public meltdowns because they can't take criticisms from rivet-counters or if they react to stupid threats over a simple set of code designed to simulate combat flight in a WWII setting.
Like I said, there's blame to be had on both sides and we rarely see a good portion of the entire story so such "meltdowns" are just the tip of the iceberg. I'd rather vote with my wallet and let the product guide my purchases.
I do echo what mike1997 said..... I like this community (SimHQ) for the maturity of the members, and while I see this on the other sub-forums, the DCS and IL2BoS sub-communities do leave a bit to be desired. Sure, we'd like a good game, tweaked to our specific way of playing, but just because the devs chose to go a different path doesn't mean they deserve all the vitriol I've seen flung about.
I find Don/DBurnette's post a bit ironic though. He talks about deal breakers, yet lists Cliffs of Dover as one of the games he is having a blast with. What that tells me is that even broken things can be fixed in time. If all we're complaining about is XP/grinding, graphic and difficulty presets, and SP progression, then I have high hopes for BoS. Are the aircraft FMs wrong? Do the guns seem overpowered or are not exhibiting the behavior or correct ammo count? Is take-offs/landings too easy/difficult? These are the things I look for in a sim. Sure, it'll be nice if I can tweak the graphics settings a bit, but really, will you get up and walk away simply because you are "pre-set" to 4x MSAA and you want 8x MSAA? Or because the sun is too yellow? If these things bother you more than the enemy fighters bearing down on you, maybe you're in the wrong sim. I would say, however, that they seriously dropped the ball on no tri-screen support.
[ps -- when I say "you," I'm not referring to Don/DBurnette in particular but rather to the people who voice such complaints]
Excellent post... and bear in mind.. that in all the communities you mentioned many of the members are the same folks. I honestly don't see how anyone, anywhere, can defend the very public statements and behavior of the 1CGS. They ought to be a case study in how to destroy a business venture. . LukeFF, how is loki's post history relevant to the discussion/fact that Loft and Jason just damned the whole community to a future of poorly made products in an Internet temper tantrum of company destroying proportions?  ............ I think that sometimes people forget that before some of us became mods on the BoS or any other forum for that matter, we were simmers first. Simmers who want the same things that most simmers who have been doing it for over a decade want. Some of this stuff is just so surreal to me .. they way it waxes so personal. Maybe this is why, while I do not agree with or condone the subject matter of the OP.. I do understand it. It seems to me that some folks forget that most of the supporters of BoS are not happy with many decisions made during the development of BoS either.. That fact seems to get lost in the sauce for too many folks and because we chose to see the glass as half full and not half empty some seem to imply that there has to be something wrong with us.. or that we are toeing the party line.. or that we have something to loose .. some greater stake at hand than the same stake that you do. The cost of the sim and the prospect of yet another failed dedicated WWII sim launch in a market that has already seen it's share of disasters and is steadily getting smaller. For the record.. for me personally, I would not chose to be a part of a team that did not allow me to maintain my own voice and my own thoughts on issues. I am just as much a customer as anyone else in this thread. I do not speak any differently on the BoS forums than I do here .. [quote=AbortedMan]
The real question is why the product isn't satisfying some of the customers. Part is maybe the dev's responsability with some ankward decisions, but another part may also be unrealistic expectation of the customer in the first place.
Are these unrealistic expectations?
I know there are more complaints, but these are the big two that started this whole storm IMHO. I agree,and this makes it more difficult to understand why it was done that way in the first place. However.. we have had all this drama and bad blood.. much of it self inflicted by the devs themselves.. Within the community we have had all kinds of rage quits and for the past what.. month + now this has been going pretty much non stop. Has it helped or has it hurt the ongoing development of BoS and the longterm future of high fidelity sims in general? For me the bottom line is that there is more to like than to not like in BoS. I saw a video made by an old stick from back in the day .... a name most of you would instantly recognize. Back in IL2 1.2 this guy preferred to fly IL2s and P-39s.. in fact he had one in is sig (a P-39).. This guy has been gone from the scene for about 8 years and he has been drawn back by BoS. In the video he made it seemed to me like he was doing some ground work in an IL2 but the rear gunner was not unlocked.. but it looked great.. and that video did a lot to show what the potential of BoS is. Unlocks or no .. that potential is still in there. As much as I hate campaigns.. I HATE THEM.. and as disgusted as I was with having to redo my sticks for what.. the third time.. or is it fourth.. and this after I had just done it ... I don't know what some of you will do.. but I am in the process of trying to move forward with BoS. The devs are going to do what they are going to do. If they fix some things great. If they don't it is what it is but sitting at one's keyboard complaining about it for months and months does little that I can see.
Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
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This last stunt brought the metacritic score down to 6.1. This is a new record.
I can't believe people who invested big money in this thing let this guys blow it all with their retarded ideas and attitude.
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I can't believe people who invested big money in this thing let this guys blow it all with their retarded ideas and attitude. I've thought about this a good bit, and the game design would make sense if BoS were a venture capital project where you throw something against the wall to see if it sticks (an experiment, so to speak). But if money is a precious resource as 1CGS seem to suggest, then they have taken a very high risk path with their experimental game design.
Dogfighting is what you do "after" you drop your bombs and blow something up! Can you say "JABO!"
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HOA's
by Terl9999 - 09/18/26 04:12 AM
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Football
by Terl9999 - 09/18/26 02:42 AM
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Flags
by Terl9999 - 09/15/26 10:03 PM
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