|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Senior Member
|
|
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665 |
Dear Hpasp. What else do you intend to include to this upgrade(0.928.2) concerning OSA AK?  Lock on Jamming targets is somehow not working, but still not found it why... 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 339
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 339 |
Dear Hpasp. What else do you intend to include to this upgrade(0.928.2) concerning OSA AK? Lock on Jamming targets is somehow not working, but still not found it why... What do you mean ,lock on is not working on jamming targets? What do you want from OSA AK to do?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 916
farokh Member
|
|
farokh Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 916 |
Dear Hpasp. What else do you intend to include to this upgrade(0.928.2) concerning OSA AK? epap  you should ask it in future plan topic 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 339
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 339 |
Dear Hpasp. What else do you intend to include to this upgrade(0.928.2) concerning OSA AK? epap you should ask it in future plan topic Why,young boy ?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,045
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,045 |
Our forum mate Vadifon pointed at a strange thing with SA-2E (with F too, probably) - strange missile flight path in UPR/K mode....: I am not sure how it was programed (only Hpasp knew), but definitely this is not a correct behavior. At first sight it looks like it is like K method, but in beta plane. Thanks to user Rackot from guns.ru I got some details about K1 and K2 commands and missile profiles: http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/71/1161030-92.htmlWe need some help from a russian speaking engineer to help with data, as I am not educated enough to "decode" principles of missile guidance....
Last edited by piston79; 05/19/14 04:53 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Senior Member
|
|
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665 |
I am not sure how it was programed (only Hpasp knew), but definitely this is not a correct behavior.  - target is flying with great Parameter, from left to right. - In this case of UPR/K method, the missile is leading the target in azimuth to the right(green arrow). - This lead angle is limited by the Dvina/Volhov antenna system design. - Missile is flying at the right limit (red line). - When the target gets closer to the missile (blue arrow), the missile starts to aim the half lead point instead of the right limit. <-- this point could be the marked one at the comment above (white)  The red section is where the missile right lead is limited from the target azimuth. Blue section is where the missile is flying ideal Half Lead.  If you have the 3DAAR, you can measure the azimuth limit of the Volhov/Dvina design... This is an advanced++ topic, but if you understand why the missile behaviour this way, you again stepped to a new level.
Last edited by Hpasp; 05/16/14 07:43 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,045
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,045 |
Yes, it is when P is above 10 km... Still, this is not the right way, I think.... Tnagental speed gotta be increasing with aprroaching of the target to the ZRK (maximum is when target goes true the parameter line and start receding... Thus the lead angle gotta be smaller and increasing with missiles approaching the target (max is 4 degrees)... 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Senior Member
|
|
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665 |
Yes, it is when P is above 10 km... Still, this is not the right way, I think.... Tnagental speed gotta be increasing with aprroaching of the target to the ZRK (maximum is when target goes true the parameter line and start receding... Thus the lead angle gotta be smaller and increasing with missiles approaching the target (max is 4 degrees)... Target - Red line T/T guidance - Green line Ideal UPR guidance without antenna azimuth limitation - dark blue Real limited UPR guidance - bright blue 
Last edited by Hpasp; 05/16/14 07:53 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,045
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,045 |
Last edited by piston79; 05/16/14 08:44 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Senior Member
|
|
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665 |
Here VADIFON does some charts also:  3 points: - This picture nicely shows what happens (talking about missile-1), just one part of the equation is missing here... ... instead of the theoretical path, missile actually flies the kinematical path. (if you look at the the picture more closely, you can see that the missile started left turn earlier.) - Another problem is that Google Earth is displaying events only by seconds, and interpolates between. (What you see on Karat is the real missile flight path, and it is much flatter at Google Earth) - As we are discussing HALF Lead instead of FULL lead, the targeted impact point is not fixed at the target path, but moving in the direction where the target flies, as the missile is getting closer.
Last edited by Hpasp; 05/18/14 07:46 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Senior Member
|
|
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665 |
Here VADIFON does some charts also:  RPK radiation pattern has nothing to do here, the main limitation of lead angle is the two wide-beam antenna, that tracks the missiles beside the target.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,045
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,045 |
3 points:
- This picture nicely shows what happens (talking about missile-1), just one part of the equation is missing here...
... instead of the theoretical path, missile actually flies the kinematical path.
(if you look at the the picture more closely, you can see that the missile started left turn earlier.)
- Another problem is that Google Earth is displaying events only by seconds, and interpolates between.
(What you see on Karat is the real missile flight path, and it is much flatter at Google Earth)
- As we are discussing HALF Lead instead of FULL lead, the targeted impact point is not fixed at the target path, but moving in the direction where the target flies, as the missile is getting closer.
So, you believe this is the right behaviour and no bug? Does any officer confirms that? EDIT: As the target is traveling with a almost constant speed, the system must calculate the impact point.... Because of the 4 degrees limit, the missile will go to this limit and when the point of impact (PoI) appears to be inside this 4 degrees angle, the missile will go for it... Here we have a factor which is the distance between missile and target (PoI). I think this is the factor which is the most important for the calculation....
Last edited by piston79; 05/18/14 05:06 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Senior Member
|
|
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665 |
3 points:
- This picture nicely shows what happens (talking about missile-1), just one part of the equation is missing here...
... instead of the theoretical path, missile actually flies the kinematical path.
(if you look at the the picture more closely, you can see that the missile started left turn earlier.)
- Another problem is that Google Earth is displaying events only by seconds, and interpolates between.
(What you see on Karat is the real missile flight path, and it is much flatter at Google Earth)
- As we are discussing HALF Lead instead of FULL lead, the targeted impact point is not fixed at the target path, but moving in the direction where the target flies, as the missile is getting closer.
So, you believe this is the right behaviour and no bug? Does any officer confirms that? EDIT: As the target is traveling with a almost constant speed, the system must calculate the impact point.... Because of the 4 degrees limit, the missile will go to this limit and when the point of impact (PoI) appears to be inside this 4 degrees angle, the missile will go for it... Here we have a factor which is the distance between missile and target (PoI). I think this is the factor which is the most important for the calculation.... This is the correct missile behavior. The only debatable part what I see is the lead angle limitation. (if it is 4 degrees, or 3.5 or less than that)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,045
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,045 |
This is the correct missile behavior.
The only debatable part what I see is the lead angle limitation.
(if it is 4 degrees, or 3.5 or less than that)
I think the answer is here: http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/71/1161030-92.html(formulas from 107).... For half lead method (epsilon/Beta) it is equal minus angular speed of line of sight of the target multiplied on limit of distance "missile-target", whole divided by the speed "missile-target" (formula 113)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 339
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 339 |
One thought . Is it appropriate to use the terminology " bug report " when we have a simulation program which emulates a real system ? In my opinion Hpasp is providing his best and he tries to include so much reality to OSA AK Samsim and so I say that all we request are possible upgrades and not "bugs". So to Hpasp and for his patience also ...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,045
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,045 |
I think the half lead will keep the missile on the bisector of the target-SAM-point of impact angle (counting the limits due to main lobe size of SNR/RPK, as full lead will keep the missile of SAM-PoI line....)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 339
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 339 |
A P-19/CASTA screen in "c" keyboard ,in Greece AEGEAN/NAMFI selection, maybe... 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,045
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,045 |
I think the half lead will keep the missile on the bisector of the target-SAM-point of impact angle (counting the limits due to main lobe size of SNR/RPK, as full lead will keep the missile of SAM-PoI line....) As a half-lead must keep the missile on bisector line of target-SNR-point of impact angle, when this angle became less than 8 degrees, the missile should leave the 4 degree limit mark and starts follow target-SNR-point of impact angle / 2....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Senior Member
|
|
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665 |
I think the half lead will keep the missile on the bisector of the target-SAM-point of impact angle (counting the limits due to main lobe size of SNR/RPK, as full lead will keep the missile of SAM-PoI line....) As a half-lead must keep the missile on bisector line of target-SNR-point of impact angle, when this angle became less than 8 degrees, the missile should leave the 4 degree limit mark and starts follow target-SNR-point of impact angle / 2.... I think that SAMSIM is coded like this, just not sure, what you mean on... - bisector line - when this angle became less than 8 degrees (why 8?) - the 4 degree limit mark (why 4?) ... please describe these in drawing, that I could understood it more clearly.
Last edited by Hpasp; 05/29/14 04:46 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 339
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 339 |
Proximity fuse operation in OSA AK.
It is observed that easy targets present few meter miss distance followed by kill.
Harder targets ( maneuvering) present bigger numbers let's say 10-20 m miss distance followed by hit or kill.
The idle distance (well boresighed axis of missile towards the target) to detonate warhead is 8-12 m.
The radiation pattern of proximity fuse is 60 deg cone.
After the above it should be expected :
- easy targets to be closer to idle distance of operation and harder targets from 2-20 m with no kill/hit/kill results.
-2 or 3 or 4 m miss distance in my opinion is not necessarily a kill !Most probably is a hit,in best case .
Last edited by ePap; 05/29/14 05:49 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
HOA's
by Terl9999 - 09/18/26 04:12 AM
|
Football
by Terl9999 - 09/18/26 02:42 AM
|
Flags
by Terl9999 - 09/15/26 10:03 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
