Just some additional info, to help the brainstorming here... Contrary to the RPC 1.4 or 0.7 degree beam, its IFF system has a whooping 10 degree "pencil" beam!!! If the target is inside of it, giving "I'm your target" signal, the crew could accidentally lock on target, 60km away from the actual IFF signal sender.
This is why own fighters should stay far away of any S-200 engagement. (See piston table above.)
But there was a lot more than 65 km between the drone and Tu-154...
There is an important thing we do not have information about... Target's range from the site! I don't believe that if the range input in "Plamya" is less than 80 km ("Program 1"), the missile could have enough energy to reach this distance... So, they should aimed beyound this range...
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But there was a lot more than 65 km between the drone and Tu-154...
Just some additional info, to help the brainstorming here... Contrary to the RPC 1.4 or 0.7 degree beam, its IFF system has a whooping 10 degree "pencil" beam!!! If the target is inside of it, giving "I'm your target" signal, the crew could accidentally lock on target, 60km away from the actual IFF signal sender.
This is why own fighters should stay far away of any S-200 engagement. (See piston table above.)
But there was a lot more than 65 km between the drone and Tu-154...
65km in transverse direction from the target! In case of longitudinal direction, it can be 300km away.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Black line is the RPC boresight. Red line is the CW energy emitted towards the target. Blue line is the area interrogated by the IFF. (Where the IFF request is sent.)
The target can be pretty far from the drone, while the crew still receives "Im your target".
Last edited by Hpasp; 06/27/1209:15 PM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Black line is the RPC boresight. Red line is the CW energy emitted towards the target. Blue line is the area interrogated by the IFF. (Where the IFF request is sent.)
The target can be pretty far from the drone, while the crew still receives "Im your target".
To be honest, it's pretty hard to believe that they used solely the IFF to identify their target... There is a lot of civilian airways in that area, and the one flown by Tu-154 is actually not the closest one. The restricted airspace around the Feodosian range is small enough, not nearly adequate for S-200. They should have been double, triple checked what they firing at. This is either an extreme recklessness or I don't know what...
To be honest, it's pretty hard to believe that they used solely the IFF to identify their target... There is a lot of civilian airways in that area, and the one flown by Tu-154 is actually not the closest one.
Generally CW radars are more susceptible of targets flying same radial speed, that target range.
My guess: Locked on the drone using MHI + IADS. IFF checked, ok. Received fire command. Fired Missile. IFF checked, ok. Target lost somehow. Relocked on target (passenger plane) with the closest radial speed (still MHI). IFF checked, ok. (locked on plane, IFF answer received from the drone) Hit.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Generally CW radars are more susceptible of targets flying same radial speed, that target range.
My guess: Locked on the drone using MHI + IADS. IFF checked, ok. Received fire command. Fired Missile. IFF checked, ok. Target lost somehow. Relocked on target (passenger plane) with the closest radial speed (still MHI). IFF checked, ok. (locked on plane, IFF answer received from the drone) Hit.
That's possible if they saw only one radar return during reacquisition, sounds good.
To be honest, it's pretty hard to believe that they used solely the IFF to identify their target... There is a lot of civilian airways in that area, and the one flown by Tu-154 is actually not the closest one.
Generally CW radars are more susceptible of targets flying same radial speed, that target range.
My guess: Locked on the drone using MHI + IADS. IFF checked, ok. Received fire command. Fired Missile. IFF checked, ok. Target lost somehow. Relocked on target (passenger plane) with the closest radial speed (still MHI). IFF checked, ok. (locked on plane, IFF answer received from the drone) Hit.
Yeah, that's seems to be the most plausible explanation. However, there is still one problem, that was revealed by Piston79: all sources claim that the target drone was launched at 60 km range (and certainly wasn't flying away from the battery), and that would dictate the low flight profile/low speed for the missile. In this case it is extremely unlikely for the missile to travel for 360 km.
Arkhangelsk: And in jamming mode range is calculated - system knows 5N62 elevation and you set rough target altitude. Rough range is calculated from these values (you can see it on a P-14 screen or range indicator).
Yes, their boresights must be at least parallel, or better IFF antenna should tilt its boresight to and from radar antenna's boresight according to interrogated target range, so their boresights cross each other at the target. But it is not easy to do and have it working correctly under battle conditions. So this is probably the reason why they used main antenna for IFF.
Sorry by the Off-Topic, but Beczl make new interesting 3D models by DCS: World
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Some new WIP and test pics.
The S-60 57mm AA gun and ZSU-57-2 SPAAG is finished. Now I'm working on the Puazo optical fire controller and SA-2F complex. The missile launcher pad, V-750V 11D missile and SA-75M radar is WIP.
Nice.... ... I would rather call it as an SA-75MK Dvina (SA-2F) system PAA cabin, and SM-63 PU launcher with V-750VMU 11DMU missile in this topic.
Last edited by Hpasp; 06/28/1204:29 PM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
If you learned how to operate the KRUG, than you wouldn't be lost in the OSA (SA-8)... ... difference is mainly system (short) range, self contained target acquisition radar, and the possibility to guide two missiles against one target parallel.
Last edited by Hpasp; 06/28/1206:33 PM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Me being a complete KRUG system fan, I would love to see Gecko implemented some day. Too bad Hungarian air defense brigade didn't get a bunch of those during the cold war. Tacticals systems, dealing with low-level targets, sneaking through the terrain, it's real fun.
One of the largest air battle of Operation Allied Force, happened on the 37th day of the campaign.
On NATO side the attackers were:
F-15C CAP armed with 6xAIM-120 2xAIM-9M
F-16CJ Weasel (in a can ) armed with 2xHARM 2xAIM120A 2xAIM-9M
EA-6B Prowler ECM Support
RQ-1 Predator Intel Support
F-117A armed with 2xLGB
B-2A armed with several JDAMS
On Serbian side, 3 Neva systems were on duty during that night. (others were relocating)
They launched all-together 7 V-601P 5V27 (Goa Mod.1) missiles against 4 targets.
Some sources confirms that a second F-117A was damaged during this battle. "An F-117A of the 49th FW was damaged during strike mission by a nearby explosion of an SA-3 SAM, ...causing loss of part of the tail section, but the aircraft was able to return safely to Spangdahlem air base, Germany. (source: Air Forces Monthly, July 1999, p. 75)"
Weasels launched several HARM's during the battle, but the defenders had one extra trick, the IRZ...
Will you be ready for this battle?
Last edited by Hpasp; 06/29/1207:37 PM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
) armed with
