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I constantly take off control surfaces (rudder, elevators) with the 109 cannons, that's usually seen as pretty catastrophical by the ones piloting the planes... I don't expect the cannons to break wing main spars, if that is what you mean, and I don't think that happened a lot in reality.

Yep that's what I meant. I knew this would bring up the realism aspect of this and that's why I mentioned the Spit. Also the AI don't seem to find losing a horizontal stabiliser or an elevator as catastrophic, they continue on like nothing is wrong.

Regardless of realism with the 8 MG's in the Spit I have taken the entire wing off the He 111 many times.

I must admit I've mainly attacked fighters with the 109, but as I also mentioned I have never 'blown up' a Hurri or Spit with the 109 armament but I have blown up many 109's with the Spit and Hurri.

Any specific info on the E-2? Luftwaffe Quartermastergeneral returns quote 2/3 losses of this rare bird.

Also 4 losses of the 109F-1 up to 31st Dec 1940 but not necessarily in the Battle of Britain? This, and the -2 sub-type had the DB601N of course.

Did Galland fly the F-1 in the closing stages of the Battle of Britain?

Fans of the engine-mounted cannon (F-1 and 2 had MG151 in either 15mm or 20mm calibre) may be drawn to this possibility.

Stab/JG 51 received a number of Bf 109 F-1 in October. M�lders claimed a kill in one on October 25 1940.

Yes the E was supposed to have a nose cannon but it was unreliable so they just did with the 4x mg but changed to the 2 wing cannon later for better hitting power (they could bring down planes with one cannon round as opposed to several mg rounds). The hole in E spinner was just for cooling (allegedly) and was sometimes covered over.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

I saw a British test video of a 20 mm ff canon doing just that. Breaking a spitfire's main spar.

This is the best treatise I've read on relative effectiveness of WW2 fighter armament. While reading it I would be thinking of various objections, only to find them well-addressed as I continued further in the article. Some real surprises, especially the low rating of the Browning .50 BMG, but the article puts it all into perspective. Up until now, most of what I've read on this topic expressed weapon effectiveness in "pounds of projectile per second" with only a nod towards the greater destructive effect of HE cannon shells.

The article also acknowledges other factors that have too many variables to effectively measure: one that didn't surprise me? Pilot skill.

Thanks for posting this link.

Yes, thanks Brealistic, that is a pretty interesting link. Good find.

Michael

And when you add the stress induced during flight and turns, major damage hopefully the e4 will bring that kind of damage.

Your very welcome buddy

The test was done right at the wing root and took the wing off. The 20 mm is a "mine shell" It's thin walled and filled with explosives.

The penetrative power of even a solid core, slower firing FF round should not be underestimated.

I posted this back in the earlier Rowan Bob days, quoted from a Hurricane crash report.

"The shell went through the rudder post, through the radio, back armour, pilot (shifting his spine and rib-cage over some 4 inches left), instrument panel, glycol tank and exited top of engine cowling."

csThor,

Obviously, a Battle of Britain Bf109F kill then! Any others known?

Would need to check Tony Wood's claimlists but don't have access to them here at work.

Tony's list only goes up to the end of June 1940. The next list starts Jan 1941.

Typical.

But Prien lists M�lders flying his first sortie in a Bf 109 F-1 (Werknummer 5628) on October 9 1940. Between that date and December 1 1940 he claimed 12 kills but unfortunately there's no mention of the aircraft he flew then. Perhaps a few were indeed claimed while flying a Bf 109 F-1.

OK, it is from Wiki,

"On 11 October, M�lders claimed his 43rd victory. The 66 Squadron Spitfire I X4562 was flown by Pilot Officer J. H. T. Pickering, who bailed out, wounded, over Canterbury.[Weal 1999, p. 7.] Three Hurricanes on 12 October brought his tally to 51 victories."

Would say most probably at least 4 anyways.

Really interesting read. Sure - we knew it, but the awesomeness of the firepower in the 262 and the late 190:s is impressive...