homepage Forums Air Combat & Civil Aviation Falcon 4.0 Realism of Radar Guided Missiles

Speedy Banana,

Roger that. The split S will work as well, the only down side, is it tends to take more energy off the jet. There was an excellent TV program about 8 years ago, which was a documentary about F-16 drivers doing missile evasion drills. It went into incredible mathematics about energy levels, G pulls, aspect, the full nine yards.

I used to feel that avoiding missiles in F4 was a 'Black Art'. I think LP may have tweeked missile performance, as evasion works in F4AF.

Don't get me wrong, I still get hit from time to time. The visual limitations of a PC monitor add to the problems big time. If I take my last ten silk rides and look at the stats, this is what I get.

KS19 AAA 5 Shoot Downs (All on OCA Missions)
Manpads 2 Shoot Downs (Both SA14's)
R77 2 Shoot Downs
R27 1 Shoot Down

Regarding beam tactics. Yes initially it can be used to avoid a doppler shift radar. Obviously if you beam before you fire, you are defensive. When you beam after a slammer pitbull, you increase the angle off for the missile track, and may still break the firing aircrafts radar lock, and or the missiles guidance lock. Basicaly it's the most efficient way to give the missile problems.
Altitude jinks can be used, but they tend to be overdone and bleed off too much airspeed.

Split S reversal is great if the enemy fire at long range and you do not intend to enter into the fight at that point in time. The one danger of split S reversal is where and at what starting altiude it's done at. If your over enemy real estate, you might just slide into manpad range, and as a lot of the manpads are IR guided, you can get caught with no warning.

If you want a short F4AF ACMI tape that shows F16 V Mig-29 and how to beam/spoof the R27 PM me with your e-mail and I'll send it to ya.

All The Best

Ghostrider117

Just some more info after doing tests against a Mig-29 carrying R77 missiles. Compaired to the R27, the R77 looks to be about twice as hard to defeat. Beaming caused the R77 to loose lock for a few seconds, but soon re-aquired, and it needs a well timed viscious break into it to defeat the missile. If you are off by a second in the break, it will kill you everytime. The only sure fire way I could beat it everytime, was a split S reversal and run in full AB.

Further, I had to split S before my slammer went pitbull, so it turned Mad-Dog and this could be dangerous for friendly fire incidents in crowded skies. Some times the Mig-29 reversed as well, so both slammer and R77 missed. Using the above scenario 10 times, resulted in 10 victories over the Mig-29, but 3 kills went down to guns, as we used all our MRM's with no hits. On the other 7 engagements the Mig-29 kept coming and ate the slammers.

At full realism with no labels on, any R77 capable aircraft is a serious threat. There is only one way I can see to tell if the missile fired at you is an R27 or R77. The RWR stops screaming the moment you beam an R77 but soon starts the warning again. The RWR tends to keep warning when the missile is an R27. However, if you beam and it is an R77, it's almost certainly too late to reverse and run, you need to bug out really quick to outrun the R77.

I did the defeat two R77 shots using the corkscrew barrel role, but it's risky at best.

In short, the R77 is a really nasty MRM to deal with.

i'm guessing this was directed at me?

check out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iygmxn1ldVU and see if that gives a little visual to very educational and experienced words already posted

Hag

Nice flying bud

thank you sir...

the video example is pretty close to text book stuff and therefore far from what you'd see me ( and probably most of the more experienced virtual pilot's ) do in an engagement Vs another opponent... but at least it's a starting point...

the main lesson to learn is to try to replicate the above example, record it and watch how the missile responds to your manuevers via ACMI... after recording a few sessions you'll soon understand the dynamics of the missile to target and understand how to use its speed and limited energy against it...

Hag

Hag, I learned a lot from that video. Nice touches like locking the Mig up in TWS first, then the 4 second count after Rmax AIM120 launch, before notching to put the Mig on the edge of the radar gimble. Then the really nice stuff, like placing him under full lock to make him ECM and give the AIM120 HOJ status, very nice. Then the tricky bit, timing the rolling break into the R77 at just the right moment. Looks like using the right MFD as RWR is the key here, break turn just as the R77 is entering the innermost RWR ring.

Before watching that video I could maybe beat an R77 50% of the time by beaming. Split S reversal was a sure way to beat it, but it's a pretty negative tactic compaired to the video method. I just flew my TE against the Mig-29 with R77 loadout, and swatted that sucker 10 out of 10. I did hear the explosion of the R77 twice, so I guess they were really close Thanks again for another great F4AF 'How To'.

Ghostrider117

Excellent work mate!!!! Now for the better news... IMHO the R77 is the most difficult to defeat kinematically... the -120s are much easier to dodge ( albeit a skillfull shooter can put a -120 on you that will hit seconds after the RWR "twitter" thus eliminating your dodge )...

Now it gets real exciting, train a friend up to the same standard and start training BVR Vs each other... at first you'll both just throw missiles that will miss ( as your defensive is currently superior to your offense ), but soon you will devise unique tactics and your offense will rapidly increase to match and surpass your defensive skills... this will go back and forth for a while until you've attained "Yoda-like" BVR skills where you know what the target is doing before he does... you'll counter and put weapons on him before he knows what the heck is going on... finally, you'll fly against a pundit and be amazed with the ease and precision at which you can dispatch him... next is the 2 Vs 2 training where it all begins again...

good luck and see you in the skies

Hag

PS yes sir if you hear the "boom" as it crosses your belly you are bringing it in perfectly... it's when you feel the boom is about to happen and the missile is above you that gets you really nervous

Well, well, well.....

I must say that is a pretty good instructional video hag....after watching it multiple times, I decided it was time to try it out. However, I was shot down 13 times will shooting down the Mig-29 11 times. The good news though, was that I actually dodged the R77 a total of 3 times!! Before watching the video, I would have dodged it 0 times, and maybe scored 3-4 kills.

Update: Just tried it on MatchPlay to 5 points...Out of 6 missles fired at me, I defeated 5 of them.....final score, Me - 5 / AI -1.

Hag,

Yup I have to agree, the R77 is the one to practice against, it's one nasty missile for sure.

>> but soon you will devise unique tactics and your offense will rapidly increase to match and surpass your defensive skills..<<

Now that is very interesting, and I think I might be getting too old to improve that much

In the TE scenario previously described and in your great video clip, I can't for the life of me figure out any point in the time frame of events that allows offensive action between R77 launch to R77 defeat. Of course if we are talking pre engagement skills, like sneaking in behind a bandit with radar off, using AWACS vectors, then yes I can see plenty options. I've frequently fooled Mig-29 Su-27 drivers into wasting all their missiles, and then handed out slammer lunch boxes to them.

I guess we are talking true 'Ace Factors' here, and I understand if pilots don't want to give away their trade secrets.

>>if you hear the "boom" as it crosses your belly you are bringing it in perfectly... <<

Man I don't know how guys do this for real. Some simmers say F4AF is too lethal yet it depicts the modern battlefield with great accuracy.

Anyway, now that I have unlimited broadband, I guess it's time I got back into online flying.

Thanks for all the heads up.

Ghostrider117

I prefer the Hag method, which was also usefull in Falcon SP4 against those SU27's. Works fine for me... Excellent example in that video there m8.

The method Ghostrider mentioned (turning in the missile and brake up in the final phase) can only work right if you time youre moves right. Braking a split second to soon/early and the R77 will hit you for sure.

and Fearswl, keep on practicing, it will pay of some day

The Falconeer

Well first of all that is not true. I allways sneak up to MiG-21s, J-22s, G-4 Galebs and Su-25s in the Campaign. If you want to sneak to an enemy follow these steps:

1. Switch your radar to TWS (track while scan) mode and put your cursor on the enemy but of course don't lock it. Allways be 5000 - 7000 feet higher then your enemy and a little to the right or to the left to your enemy because in that way you can easily get behind him if you are going head on to him and he pases below you.
2. When the enemy is 10 miles away from you decrease your range mode to 10 miles. Make sure you are in TWS and that your cursors are on him.
3. Get behind him if you aren't allready.
4. Switch to AIM-9 Sidewinders and switch it to BORE instead off SLAV on your MFD.
5. Get the plane you want to lock inside the AIM-9 reticle. Make sure that the heat-tone is good. Press U to uncage the missile seeker head. The missile will then lock to a plane that is in the AIM-9 reticle on the HUD.
6. When you are of about 2.5 miles behind the enemy fire the missile. You will not have a DLZ since you didn't lock that plane on the radar but you can see on the radar aproximate range to the enemy. I'm sure you all know how to see the distance from the radar without a lock but here is a couple of pictures if someone doesn't know:

ENEMY TEN MILES:


ENEMY FIVE MILES:


ENEMY 2.5 MILES:


When beeing 2.5 miles behind the enemy the missile will allways reach the enemy without any problems.
7. Fire the Sidewinder and the enemy won't know a thing of a inbound missile. He wont drop flares, nothing. But you mustn't get to close to the enemy. Keep your distance to 2 miles. Don't get closer or he will notice you.

Once I sneaked behind three MiG-21s and I shot them down all by myself. They didn't know that I'm behind them. They were flying in formation so I first shot down the last one, then the second and then their leader. But I can't sneak up behind MiG-29s or Su-27s and that is really unrealistic. They allways know that I'm there and they turn and engage me and there is no AWACS to tell them because it's a Campaign and Yugoslavia doesn't have AWACS. MiG-29 is a great fighter plane but it has an ordinary fighter radar which can just see planes that are in front of him. So there's no way he can know that I am 20 miles behind him. I guess the simulation is made on purpose like that so it can be a little harder shooting down MiG-29s or Su-27s but that is really unrealistic. Well that's all about sneaking to enemies and good luck in it.

Now I would like to talk about evading missiles. Here are the steps for a 100% success rate of evading SAM and A-A missiles especialy R-77M called Adder:

1. When you see an M letter on the RWR you know that a radar missile is on your way. Go to full afterburner and put the missile on you 3/9 line.
2. Put your flight path marker to 5 - 10 degrees below the horizon. Not nose, the flight path marker.
3. On one of your MFD put the RWR because it is much larger then the real RWR and you can more accurate tell the distance of the missile.
4. Make sure you accelerate above 600 knots. To 650 knots. Thats why you need to put your flight path marker to 10 degrees below horizon, to accelerate faster. The speed is the key when evading a missile.
5. When the M letter enters the inner circle of the RWR then do a Split S. It should look like this:



Do not do it earlier. Roll for 180� and pull. You will do a 9.5 G turn. Your turn radius will be big because of a high speed so you must be at at least 12 000 feet to do this. Don't let your speed get over 700 knots. Keep your speed at about 650 knots. The missile will lose the lock and hit the ground. The missile will hit you when the diamond and the circle around letter M touches the center of the inner circle, the center of the whole RWR and that center is you. It should look like this:



You can see on this picture that the diamond and the circle around letter M has touched the center of the RWR which is you so there is less than a second until missile will hit you. The missile is moving from left to right. The right part of the circle and the diamond around the letter M is representing the missiles head. And you know what happens when the missiles head touches you.

I read once that when evading a missile you must be at corner speed and then do a Split S. So the missile can't follow you because of your small turn radius and it loses the lock. But that isn't true at least when dealing with A-A Missiles. I tried that a couple of times and the missile allways hits me without a bigger problems. It just does a little corections and it hits me. So we acctually need a big turn radius and high speed when evading a missile so it can't follow you because of your high speed. And there are two ways to get a bigger turn radius:

1. To be below corner speed. Lets say at about 300 knots. The plane will go slow but it will also pull just 3-4 Gs. Thats a big turn radius because of little Gs.
2. The second way is to go really fast. Like 600 - 650 knots. Your plane will do over 9 Gs but because of a big speed the turn radius will be big.

In the first example we have a big turn radius but not a high speed. We need a big turn radius and a high speed so that's why is the second example the best for evading missiles. When evading SAMs you don't have to be above 600 knots. Then you can be at 500 knots. I guess SAMs aren't so agile (except SAM-6) like A-A missiles because they are much bigger then A-A Missiles. This tehnique is better then outruning the missile because when outruning you go away from the bandit. And then if you didn't fire an AMRAAM on him or if he evaded your missile you will be very far from him and it will take long when you are going back to him to engage him again. That way you lose more fuel. And when outruning the missile it's to late if the missile already showed up on the RWR. But when doing this tehnique it's never late. Just turn on your afterburners, beam the missile, turn on your RWR on the MFD, put your flight path marker to 5� to 10�, accelerate to 650 knots and when it gets close do a Split S. Very simple. And don't forget! You must be above 600 knots. At 650 knots. The disadvantage is that you have to jetison all your fuel tanks because with fuel tanks you can pull just 6.5 Gs. But there is no way to evade a missile with fuel tanks and bombs or A-G missiles on your plane with any tehnique except going below 300 feet, I think. R-77s are to me easier to evade then R-27s because you can see the R-77 on your RWR and you can know when to do a Split S. But R-27s are SARH ( semi-active radar homing ) so you can't see them on the RWR. This tehnique works only if the missile fired on you is fired from more than twenty miles. If it's fired from 20 miles or less the missile will have more speed when it gets to you and more energy. So this doesn't work when the missile is fired from smaller distances. But I will try to think of something similar to this for missiles fired from smaller distances. Thats all and good luck. And tell me did you manage to sneak up to a plane or evade an R-77 with this tehnique .

When a R-77/Slammer is fired at me I like to cry like a little girl then I "accidently" unplug my computer. So far I have a 100% success rate.

..but seriously great advice in this thread from some great sticks. follow their advice and in no time you'll be beating R-77s/Slammers fired at you under 12NM.