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Re: SAM Simulator
GrayGhost #3590698 06/12/12 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
The ARM guidance head is usually based on monopulse method (same as used with the KRUG system [YOU SHOULD KNOW IT ALREADY!!!]), as the targeted SAM system can be switched off at any moment.


In fact most if not all modern radar guided missiles use a monopulse antenna design. Let's see if someone starts building AESA-radared missiles ... biggrin

Thanks for the pic BTW, I had not seen that antenna before.


Agree, monopulse design has succeeded all the others in newer systems...

2K11 KRUG (SA-4)
S-200 Vega (SA-5)
2K12 KUB (SA-6)
9K33 OSA (SA-8)
S-300PT/PS/PMU (SA-10)
S-300PM/PMU1/PMU2 (SA-20)
S-400 (SA-21)
+
All Patriot designs.
cowboy

We, SAM Fire Control Officers know this antenna design (somehow) very well...

banghead

Last edited by Hpasp; 06/12/12 07:27 PM.
Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/
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Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)
Re: SAM Simulator
Hpasp #3590708 06/12/12 07:47 PM
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These days it's also backed up by GPS and a couple other goodies, including potentially an active MMW seeker ...

According to a few things I heard, a wild weasel or a group of them can quickly and accurately determine the location of a SAM ... this information can then be used to deal with some (though I suspect not all) decoys.

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Re: SAM Simulator
GrayGhost #3590712 06/12/12 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
These days it's also backed up by GPS and a couple other goodies, including potentially an active MMW seeker ...

According to a few things I heard, a wild weasel or a group of them can quickly and accurately determine the location of a SAM ... this information can then be used to deal with some (though I suspect not all) decoys.


Against active radar guidance HARM (with MMW seeker), the best method of defense is the same, as you used against our active radar missiles...
... chaff! biggrin

Gazetchik-E


... and some other tricks:
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-SAM-DefAids.html

Last edited by Hpasp; 06/12/12 08:07 PM.
Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/
thumbsup
Re: SAM Simulator
Hpasp #3590713 06/12/12 07:53 PM
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That's true, hehe biggrin

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Re: SAM Simulator
Hpasp #3590718 06/12/12 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Against active radar guidance HARM (with MMW seeker), the best method of defense is the same, as you used against our active radar missiles...
... chaff! biggrin


And fog.... wink
And it cannot use MTI! smile...
What a quriosity, SAM batterie droping chaffs on it's own position... wink

Last edited by piston79; 06/13/12 04:49 AM.
Re: SAM Simulator
Hpasp #3590774 06/12/12 09:15 PM
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Defense Systems KRTZ-125-2M Anti-Radiation Missile Decoy System




No one knows exactly how these machines work? confused


one question from mr.HPasP : sa-4 is a antiradiation missile! so what decoy system include at sa-4 ? do u have any picture form decoy system sa-4?

Last edited by milang; 06/12/12 09:16 PM.
Re: SAM Simulator
Hpasp #3590779 06/12/12 09:24 PM
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Is it just me or is it not possible to acquire jamming spikes in sa-2e without emitting? I turn on the ant. switch, it doesn't show anything, when I emit, the spike appears. Very dangerous in Benghazi scenarios.
Re: SAM Simulator
jazjar #3590886 06/13/12 01:31 AM
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I am pretty sure that's intended behavior for newer RWR-linked jamming pods that jams on need, instead of shining a torch in a dark room like those Buff above Hanoi. Very nasty, but not unexpected given the technological supremacy of a mid-80s U. S. of A. against Qaddafi.
Re: SAM Simulator
Hpasp #3590893 06/13/12 01:44 AM
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The jamming pod picks up the signal and jams it. It has no need to jam a non-existent signal.

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Re: SAM Simulator
piston79 #3590895 06/13/12 01:46 AM
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It really doesn't need to. Even if the HARM only 'drops close' it will be scary at minimum. Its seeker capability is backed up with GPS as well. It basically has three guidance methods, all of which are accurate on their own.

Originally Posted By: piston79
And fog.... wink

And it cannot use MTI! smile...

What a quriosity, SAM batterie droping chaffs on it's one position... wink

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Re: SAM Simulator
Hpasp #3591031 06/13/12 10:22 AM
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Hmm, but why is it so instantaneous? Can the computers in the jammer process my beam so fast that it can send its own out so fast that I can't even tell the difference on the scope? Will test with linebackers.
Re: SAM Simulator
Hpasp #3591033 06/13/12 10:27 AM
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Ha, looks like jammers from the 1960 just blare on like a siren all day wink Thank, you, never thought of that idea.
Re: SAM Simulator
jazjar #3591063 06/13/12 12:27 PM
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Depends on the jammer, I suppose. Ideally you want the jammer to 'respond' within the first few pulses of a threat signal, which happens faster than you can blink an eye. In a game, it isn't entirely unfair to model it as instantaneous.

Originally Posted By: jazjar
Hmm, but why is it so instantaneous? Can the computers in the jammer process my beam so fast that it can send its own out so fast that I can't even tell the difference on the scope? Will test with linebackers.

Last edited by GrayGhost; 06/13/12 12:28 PM.
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Re: SAM Simulator
Hpasp #3591112 06/13/12 01:40 PM
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hi helo

guys i think i found a somthing in lead 1/2 method guidance sa-4 !

loock az this

Click to reveal..
10:22am 30th of June 1970
First wave, performing reconnaissance of the Cairo air defense system.

Reconnaisance force:
4 RF-4 Orev
4 Mirage-IIICJ

2K11 KRUG-M1


00:02:25, Missile launched
Target distance: 49km
Target azimuth: 16�
Target elevation: 10�
Target altitude: 9.4km
Missile guidance method: 1/2 (Half Lead)


00:03:55, Missile launched
Target distance: 34km
Target azimuth: 30�
Target elevation: 10�
Target altitude: 6km
Missile guidance method: 1/2 (Half Lead)


Total, SNR On Air Time: 4min 39sec


Click to reveal..
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="no" ?>
<gpx xmlns="http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1">

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Re: SAM Simulator
Hpasp #3591119 06/13/12 01:53 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 916
I-RAN
F
farokh Offline
farokh
Member
farokh
farokh
Member
F Offline
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 916
I-RAN
why i cant attaching full of my 3d aar text in here? confused
i copy pase all of in notpad but pasting but no complete banghead

Last edited by milang; 06/13/12 01:58 PM.
Re: SAM Simulator
Hpasp #3591221 06/13/12 05:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 203
L
Lonewolf357 Offline
Member
Lonewolf357
Member
L Offline
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 203
I wonder if each of these green antennas is tuned to its particular narrow frequency range, or they work in parallel? I think I heard the former somewhere...
Re: SAM Simulator
Hpasp #3591242 06/13/12 05:44 PM
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I'll be glad if someone explains how this things work...
Re: SAM Simulator
piston79 #3591261 06/13/12 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: piston79
I'll be glad if someone explains how this things work...


http://www.radartutorial.eu/06.antennas/an17.en.html
KRUG and Vega uses the monopulse method of target tracking.

Instead of mechanically scanning the target like the Dvina/Volhov/Neva...

... they emit only one impulse in a pencil beam. (blue)


They receive the reflected signal with three physically displaced antenna. (red/green/blue)
With simple math, the target precise position can be calculated.
- red antenna received signal phase equals the target delta horizontal direction from the boresight.
- green antenna received signal phase equals the target delta vertical direction from the boresight.
- blue antenna received signal phase equals the target delta direction from the boresight.

am I confusing? dizzy


What you see here are the physically displaced receiver helix antennas.

They receive the incoming impulse (from the SAM), and by calculating the phase difference of the received signal, and knowing the distance of the helixes, they can accurately measure the impulse emitter direction from only one received signal.
Then the head tracking mechanics tries to set the tracking head at a direction, where the received signal phase is the same.

cowboy

Last edited by Hpasp; 06/13/12 06:29 PM.
Hpasp
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Re: SAM Simulator
Hpasp #3591267 06/13/12 06:32 PM
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I was wondering about the spiral antennae on the HARM seeker - ie. why do it this way instead of just four simple dipoles. I wonder if the varying width of the antenna helps it capture multiple wavelengths simultaneously, which would certainly help the seeker cope with radars of various wavelengths.

At the same time, my naive understanding of radio mechanics tells me that it would be blind to a bunch of wavelengths because of this as well (but you get a lot of bandwidth to help you deal with actual threat/guidance radars, so it's not all bad).

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Re: SAM Simulator
GrayGhost #3591287 06/13/12 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
I was wondering about the spiral antennae on the HARM seeker - ie. why do it this way instead of just four simple dipoles. I wonder if the varying width of the antenna helps it capture multiple wavelengths simultaneously, which would certainly help the seeker cope with radars of various wavelengths.


Correct.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_antenna

Originally Posted By: GrayGhost

At the same time, my naive understanding of radio mechanics tells me that it would be blind to a bunch of wavelengths because of this as well (but you get a lot of bandwidth to help you deal with actual threat/guidance radars, so it's not all bad).


Spiral is one of the best choice for frequency and polarization independent, small sized antenna.
Low gain is not an issue in ARM role.
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Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/
thumbsup
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