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Excelent points Hpasp and I completly agree with you!

For example the first time that I tried a LinebakerII scenario (one of the two B-52 bombings missions) I also wasn't able to shoot down anyone and I was destroyed very soon by an enemy ARM (Shrike if I'm not mistaken).

it's an SA-3 Ynk cabin.
is seems more like an road accident
really lucky to not be burned inside

Indeed, the psychological factor is the key one (been in nasty situation once, where my life was in danger, and will totally agree that when adrenaline flows over the edge, precision operations, such as those behind the SAM console, would be very difficult), as well as our ability to replay any mission as much times as we want. It would be interesting to try all the new missions for the first time, to see, which results we might achieve in these situations, at totally unknown environments. I also bet if the real SAM operators would have such a simulator, with all the bells and whistles, such as jamming, ARMs, "smart", responding, targets, for their practice, they could also achieve more impressive results.

It is noteworthy however, that we didn't had any previous training when we started to play SAM simulator, unlike real-world operators, which were taught how to do that - albeit that training was highly inadequate at many times and was lagging behind the technical progress, especially in case with Vietnam, where Soviet advisors and their Vietnamese "students" had to learn simultaneously in battles to new countermeasures and tactics. That's why I would like to see more and more combat situations in the first place, to diversify the combat environments.

I also disagree with Ricnunes when he says that the "fun factor" should exist. That's what makes Simulator different from Game, a realism. Even if we will be able to shot down one enemy aircraft in conditions where real-world operators downed none, that would certainly be a highly rewarding experience, as in case with SR-71, for example.

Hpasp, thank you for your superb work, for your dedication and your willingness to listen to us and explain all the things to us! Eagerly waiting for new versions!

Indeed, they have never been 100% successful, magical solutions, but they have dramatically reduced the efficiency of SAMs even back in Vietnam, let alone more recent conflicts, where so few aircraft, operated by technologically advanced nations (USA, Israel, UK) were lost. I read a discussion at one Russian forum once, where a specialist in electronic warfare said that during exercises at Ashuluk they were often able to completely suppress SAMs, including the relatively modern Buk-M1, so it could not fire at all, and that with not-so-modern helicopter-based Smalta ECM system. He also noted that S-400 was the only system that worked successfully in heavy ECM environments, even older S-300 had serious problems. Remember, that in SAM simulator we only have a simple noise jamming, while a lot of different, far more sophisticated, methods exist. So I would treat them very seriously, if I would be a real SAM operator in modern world, and I didn't even mentioned semi-mythical SUTHER...

P. S.: There's a video of training dogfight in Lipetsk, between Su-27 and either another Su-27 or MiG-29. The radar is virtually useless due to jamming. http://www.avsim.su/f/iz-kabini-ekipazha-97/istrebiteli-2-28335.html?action=viewonline

But that's what I'm saying as opposed to what you said! In your previous post (not this one that I quoted) I clearly got the idea that if only 3 aircraft were shot down in a mission than the player wouldn't be able to shot down more than those 3 aircraft and/or also if in one mission NO aircraft was shot down than according to your previous words I got the idea that in your oppinion No enemy aircraft shot be able to be shot down and with this latest post that you post you kinda contradict yourself - And here is where I disagree with you - This is a realistic simulation, yes it is but this is also a GAME (every simulation is a GAME, period!) and therefore conditions must exist that the player can do better (or worse) than the what happened in the real life scenario - and this is what FUN is all about which is to be able to get a diferent result compared to the real life!
You may disgree with whatever you want but a simulator even the most realistic one must be FUN or else nobody would play it - People play SAM Simulator because it's FUN! Learning those SAM systems and being able to get diferent results compared to the real life is a FUN FACTOR, period!

Yeah, OK, now I see your point. It does made sense, indeed.

Thank you for all of your comments.

1, As we are not trained officers, we are more open to try new tricks on the enemy.
(The best idea so far was, to shoot the SR with method K. Its logical, but I doubt ever any real officer used it.)
The only one real life officer, who dared to hack the system during fight, actually shot the Stealth.

2, Jamming in not the magical weapon, but it reduces the capability of the SAM system.
Each jamming type is good against a specific type of weapon.

Noise Jamming is generally the best against most of the systems, and widely used by today most modern jamming pods.
(I would deny that it is ineffective old method.)
It is good against SA2/3/4 but you shouldn't use it against the SA5/6

Deception Jamming can be annoying against the SA2F, but could easily overcome by other systems.

Rang Gate Pull-off Velocity Gate pull-off could trick the SA5.

Cross Eye Jamming is good against monopulse systems SA4/5 Shilka, ineffective against the others.

3, Evolving threats.
I add the situations in the order of toughness.

Shooting the U2 should be no problem.
War of attrition is a fair game.
Hanoi is tough, but can be done.
Libya will introduce the Digital Jamming pods, and the HARM missile. (It will be a nasty shock for everybody.)
Belgrade will introduce every current trick (Digital Jamming Pods, lots of noise jamming, Drones, AN/ALE-50, HARM, F16CJ Weasel in a Can, etc...), but also you will have the IRZ in your side.

As in the next version you can play most of the Linebacker-II, I offer you a challenge.
Select a battery of choice around Hanoi, and play all missions one/by/one, each night one from the same unit.
(it is a program for a week

Wow, that's a VERY impressive future! Cannot wait!

P. S.: What is IRZ, by the way? And what about that "hack" that Col. Dani made? Is there anything that can be told about it? Or is it still a state secret? Initially, when Stealth was shot down, there were rumours, that Serbian S-125 was equipped with a thermal imager instead of usual Karat TV camera, and engagement was done using it... However, it appears to be untrue.

Well, i'm still thinking about these surprisingly small losses of B-52's over Hanoi in Linbacker-2. The U. S. claims that only 15 were lost, while Vietnamese claim that 34 B-52's were shot down. I wouldn't want to open a can of worms here, but don't you think that the truth lies somewhere in between?

I'm also curious to that IRZ means?

Regarding the "hack" done by Col. Dani if I'm not mistaken it consisted in the following:
-> The hack was essencially done in the P-15 "Flat Face" search radar where Col. Dani changed some of its electronic components which allowed the P-15 search radar to operate at lower wavelenths and thus being able to detect Low RCS/Stealth contacts such as the F-117 at longer distances (I'm not sure but I think these modifications allowed the P-15 radar to detect a F-117 at distances of 30Km).
-> When Col. Dani detected that a F-117 was basically passing above/very near his SAM site position (possible with the help of the modified P-15 radar) his team was able to track the incoming F-117 using the SNR when the F-117 came close at a distance around 15-17Km (the SA-3 SNR is able to detect a F-117 at distances of 15-17Km, maybe a little bit more) and therefore shooting it down.

Ricnunes, I think that the P-18 meter-wave radar was used, not the decimeter-wave P-15, which could be easily destroyed by HARMs, but yes, I think you're right, I also heard of this change made to it. This, however, still would made this engagement an extremely difficult: very few of us could made it in SAM simulator successfully right from the first try. Personally, I could only make it after watching the video posted at Hpasp' site, and even after that, only about 1/2 attempts are successful. It appears that Colonel Dani and his men were real top-notch professionals. I imagine which results they could achieve if they had a couple of S-300 regiments!

Yes, you're right it was the P-18 which was used together the the SA-3 to shot down the F-117 in Serbia. Sorry for my mistake!

The P-15 can also be used as a search radar in SA-3 SAM systems (and therefore my mistake) but it was the P-18 that was used in this case. Thanks for your correction, I stand corrected.

P. S.: What is IRZ, by the way?

Serbian HARM trap.
Some Iraqi MiG21's were in Serbia for overhaul, before the war broke out.
They dismantled its RP22 radar, tuned it to the Neva frequency, and put it into a container.
It was remotely operated from the SNR, and attracted the HARMs like a magnet...





And what about that "hack" that Col. Dani made? Is there anything that can be told about it? Or is it still a state secret? Initially, when Stealth was shot down, there were rumours, that Serbian S-125 was equipped with a thermal imager instead of usual Karat TV camera, and engagement was done using it... However, it appears to be untrue.

That is untrue. It was shot by radio guidance, with T/T method.

Well, i'm still thinking about these surprisingly small losses of B-52's over Hanoi in Linbacker-2. The U. S. claims that only 15 were lost, while Vietnamese claim that 34 B-52's were shot down. I wouldn't want to open a can of worms here, but don't you think that the truth lies somewhere in between?


15 was shot down, but much more was hit and repaired.

Hpasp, thank you for your answers!

There were two major factors which allowed the F-117 to be shot down:
1- The modification made to the P-18 radar allowed the SA-3 crew to get an early warning about the incoming F-117 position and estimated course.
2- "LUCK": The SA-3 crew was lucky in that the route from the F-117 that was shot down basically or almost passed directly above that SAM site position. For example if you notice in that F-117 scenario (just like in real life) a first F-117 passes near the player's SAM site (20Km away) but it's impossible to shot it down since it passes 20Km away and the SA-3 SNR/tracking radar isn't capable (or hardly can) of detecting the F-117 at those distances. It's the second F-117 which passes a distances nearer than 15Km from the player SAM site that we have the chance to shoot down. So don't waste time with the first F-117, concentrate on the second one.

I don't think that shooting down that second F-117 is that hard - The hardest part IMO, is being able to find the F-117 in the SNR display panel in the "A" button console because the F-117 is a Stealth aircraft and therefore its target signal/blip is a very small one. But once you manage to find the F-117 in the SNR and lock it than it's easy to shot it down.

Very interesting Hpasp, thanks for the reply!


Regading the B-52s shot down in Op. Linebaker II, this site shows the looses of US aircraft (not only B-52s but ALL US aircraft) during that operation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Linebacker_II#U.S._aircraft_lost

And you can see that in the 20th of December, 6 (SIX) B-52s were shot down so being able to shot down something like 7 or 8 or even more B-52s in one mission of SAM Simulator is inded a realistic and a plausible feat/possibility.
Besides, I read that some B-52s after taken considerable damage from SAMs crashed after trying to land - Such a situation should IMo be considered a "shot down" but I doubt that statistics count this as a "shot down" but I could be wrong.

Yeah, though this wasn't just luck: as I read, the F-117's used the same route several times, and Colonel Dani's battery was placed on that route deliberately. Indeed, the hardest part is to get that F-117 on the SNR screens, especially since we don't know its altitude, as P-18 is a 2D radar, that does not provide altitude information.

BTW, in previous versions of the sim, I was able to shoot down both F-117's there using Volhov, but since then, it became impossible: the first one, that passes to the east, cannot be detected, even using the narrow beam mode.

15 was shot down, but much more was hit and repaired.

Posibility of a kill against B-52 with one missile V-755SU (warhead V88M) is 0.01-0.59 for alitudes from 1 to 15 km (this apears to be more advanced misile then SA-2F's).
Kill probability depends of many factors (miss distance, war head capability, vulnerability of the airframe - how many engines, pilots, fuel tanks should be destroyed to bring it down- and so on). In many occasions NVA FCO didn't met requirements for succesfull launch (they were "outguned and outnumbered" and under huge presure), so not so surprising they shot down only fifteen... in my first 29.12 mision, I hit only 2 with 12 missiles...

3- The BIG MISTAKE from the Allied part...
... there was some rough weather forecasted for that night.
All the flights were canceled that night, except the Stealth.

They sent the four F117 alone against Belgrade, without any support. (Jamming, Weasels, etc...)

Yes, that's correct and that's why I also put the word LUCK between "Quotes" ("luck"). Luck helped but the mistake of using the same ingress route over and over again also "helped" the Serbians a lot