"Strictly for conversation sake"

Can any of you folks with scale documentation tell me the approximate distance (in feet please) from the leading edge of the wing to the front of the spinner, or prop hub on the P-51 and the P-47?

I'd like to be able to "roughly" figure out the length of the muzzle flash on both these planes. My guess is about 8 feet long, give or take a foot.

I figure that if we can't get Oleg to see the light on the muzzel flash, perhaps we could get him to make them a bit more "scale like" in size.

Why? Like alot of folks, I think the muzzel blast in FB and IL-2 as it is now, is very "arcade" and I base that on several bits of film I've recently looked at, including "Ike" him self, test firing the Guns of a P-47, as well as some stills of the Spitfires guns being sighted in, none of which showed any muzzel flash what so ever.

I know, I know, Olegs has said he won't change them, which I think is just plain stubborness and nothing more.

I also know it's been beaten to death in this and every other forum, but maybe he'd compromise and make them smaller if we came at it from "the length of the muzzel flash" angle.

I'll post these as examples.

http://home.alltel.net/dhasso/Pics/P47SM.gif

http://home.alltel.net/dhasso/Pics/P51SM.gif

I could post pics of another dozen or more FB ac, but these demonstrate the muzzle flash just fine.

As we all know, the effect is unrealistically modeled and in the case of ac that are equipped with nose guns the flash can be absolutely blinding. The 109's with cannon are prime examples. I hate to think what the upcoming P-38 will be like.

Anyway, as suggested above maybe a compromised could be reached where the effect is present, but toned down as I've shown in the pic's.

(Transfered info to the above)

This topic has been beaten to death several times already. The developer likes his cartoon flashes and is not going to change them, ever. That's been said so many times. Too bad, as those huge muzzle "explosions" are really redicilous.

I wish you luck though

Good luck, you will need it.

Two things wrong in Il-2/FB for which OM is too mulish to change/fix > the arcade muzzle flash and the pilot's view in the Fw190.

heck, i like the muzzel flash too---or rather just a bit of it. i don't however like being blinded from the huge laser-like hell-storm flashes coming out of FB gun and cannon barrels though.

:-(

Beo

I've seen an M2HB fire, and can say that it did produce a flash, but in daylight, it is nothing like this. It was big, (There are several clips on the site for the annual Knobb Creek KY annual MGshoot of .50s and other MGs firing at night.

Ingame, we get the "look" of night time flash, in the day. (Though still way too big) In that example, the P47 flash is nearly a quarter the length of the plane! Even a howitzer firing in daylight does not create such a noticable, solid looking flash. The human eye just doesn't process quick flashes in daylight that well... they are drowned out by ambient light.

I have never seen any flame while firing a .50 cal in real life during the day. Never fired at night so couldn't tell how it is....sure they seem way exaggerated in the sim, but they don't really bother me.

a howitzer firing in daylight does not create such a noticable, solid looking flash

Maybe muzzle flash suppression is a factor?

Ming

The Germans did a lousy job designing the flash suppressors on the MG17 and MG131 if FB is anything to go by then.

Surely the flashes are big, but they exist on about 1-3 milliseconds thus making them invisible to human eye on daylight.

During night time one can see them but they are not affecting nightvision due to short duration.

I think this is one of those evergreen topics and by looking at the responses from development team, we will continue fighting in cowboy style

Good luck, Jaeger, but like all the others, I think you are just pi$$ing into the wind.....

Dick hit the nail on the head. I've fired the Ma deuce many times and the flash was never a problem in daylight, whatsoever. While firing you don't even really notice it at all. At night however it only took one shot to ruin your night vision.

i remeber on a night exersize the scout called Contact Front!

we did our, go to ground-scurry about bit and i took the gmpg out to the flank using some dead ground of a creek bed.

up i pop , 3 - 5 round burst in the direction of some firing and then my gunners mate calls

TARGETS IN OPEN, RIGHT

i look, nothing, i cant see em

FIRE

so i just swung the barrel right, to where he was pointing and fired

to this day ive always wondered wether my night vision went out the window due to the muzzel flash?

You might be right Savage, but just in case, get the other 105 boys over here and piss with me.

I'm only asking Oleg to reduce it, not remove it, and despite it seeming like a lost cause, I'll continue to do so. Your help would be appreciated.

Issues like this and the sonar sound (unless it's fixed in the patch), shouldn't be given up on to easily.

If Oleg can stick to his guns, (old saying) so can we.

On two big gun exercise, I was #3 on 105s, both in daylight, & there was absolutely nothing like what's in here. I could even see the projectile & the top of its trajectory. Even as a loader with time to spare there was no great flash by any stretch of the imagination, even from side view whilst watching the other guns fire.
FWIW,
Good Hunting!
PS Damn noisy though. For the other gunners, how about that lump in the throat even with mouth wide open & time of discharge. It would last about 12 hrs. in me after each exercise.

IIRC The Muzzle flash was even bigger in the Demo! If it can be reduced once, why not again?

Or have a "There be dragons!" "Arcade" Muzzle flash

and a more realistic "toned down" version

The thing is IMHO the opacity is the big issue. I haven't fired anything more than 5.56mm but I have seen bigger stuff (GPMG's etc) and you see a little of what looks like heat-haze. IIRC Oleg said that making the textures opaque would require too much CPU & Dev time so he wouldn't change it.

Unfortunately I think it will just have to be added to the pile of "We know its wrong, but we aren't going to fix it" stuff - and wait until the BoB sim

Muzzle fizzle is good fo shizzle.
You see the flash, you feel the burn, bam i got ya!

Always game for a piss up, me!

Good luck old boy, my vote would be to tone it down. It's a shame to seek to achieve realistic physics only to have it tainted by one arcade visual effect.

Oleg, black 'n' tans will be on me if you change it ok!

Ogs.

you have my support if it helps

Obviously this has nothing to to with me being unable to see a damn thing when firing the MK-108......

Cough - Cough

it is the NUMBER ONE reason I don't fly the Soviet planes much (and the Germans too to some extent.) Heck, i cant see when i pop off those nose guns. so i pretty well stick to the planes that don't have the nose weapons... ie the Hurricanes, P-40s, and such... or "if" i do fly the ones with nose guns, i try to reset my triggers so that i only fire the wing guns (bummer.)

i really wish they'd tone it down a good bit...NOT do away with it, just tone it down.

Beowolff

I pose a new twist on the muzzle flash.

It's not the size or intensity that's wrong - it's the duration.

Chop the amount of time we see that flash by half and the effect would be staggering.

I've fired all sorts of very cool implements of destruction, from pistol to 155mm howitzer - and the flash is quite impressive. But short in duration.

Perform this little experiment to see what I mean. In QMB take up a P-39, fly level (or stay on the ground), and fire the cannon repeatedly, making a track of it.

Now play it back both at normal speed and at 2x and 4x speed. The flash is not so bothersome, is it?

Hmmmm....

The only things I've fired in daylight that had any amount of flash were smoke poles/front stuffers/black powder stuff. These were definately a duration thing, especially with the courser powders. The flash on 22s, 32s, 38s, 357s, 44s, 44 mags, 45s, in short guns & I haven't a clue of how many long ones, in daylight, were next to nil. My only MG was a Bren & this was only a 303. These too could be a duration thing as well but I never thought of it in those terms. You could have a point there BA. To me, it seems very plausable when I think of it more.
FWIW,
Good Hunting!

hmm... Interesting to hear that some people have problems with nightvision after shooting weapons.
I have never experienced that myself with calibers between 7.62 to 128 mm. I would assume its worst with rapid fire, but ive done full belts without any problems.

we had different "cheats" for nightfighting - such as closing "aiming eye" during illumination etc. but cannot remember any special methods against gun flashes. Just never was an issue.

as i pointed out, i "always wondered wether the muzzel flash had effected my night vision" . N_ote i didnt say it did, its just that i couldnt see those men in the open and my eyesight isnt that bad usually. Nedless to say i trusted the gunners mate and saturated the area with fire

Keep it alive but stay on target. "FB's Muzzle Flash."

hey, pdizzle, has pdog1 been "put out to pasture"?