Wow! That's some really good stuff. Do you have anything from the war for the bases in North Vietnam?

-Steven

The point is that YOU KNOW how the real thing is (or should be), and you have the reference to back up your statements.

I'm not asking you to write a tutorial on how build terrain, but to write for those already building terrain, where you could show them the historical side and give them hints based on your own experience.

Anyone can write a technical tutorial, but the goodnes of a terrain is limited to the sources it comes from

The screen you have posted above is exactly the kind of work you can do at best!

LvP

[This message has been edited by Lud von Pipper (edited 06-08-2002).]

Khorat is my third, and possibly last Thai airbase picture (unless I get incredibly lucky and find good aerial photos of Udorn and Takhli.)

Unfortunately, the extreme ends of the flightline were not shown in the photo that I was using as a reference, so I'm sure that several buildings are missing. Nevertheless, the main part of the base, which no doubt contained all of the most important buildings, is 100% complete.

As with the other pictures, north is at the top. The runway numbers at Khorat are 6 and 24.



Anyone who decides to model Khorat should be aware that there was a huge army logistics base called Camp Friendship immediately to the south. That would probably have to be modelled as well.

Here's a photo that shows the geographic relationship of Khorat RTAFB and Camp Friendship. (Sorry about the poor quality!) This photo was taken in 1964, long before most of the buildings at Khorat airbase were erected.



If anyone happens to find a good aerial photograph of either Udorn or Takhli, I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know.

Thanks!



[This message has been edited by Sleuths7 (edited 06-08-2002).]

Thanks!

Sorry, but I don't have anything on the North Vietnamese airbases. I doubt that there is much, if any, specific information available about them.

I know that they were all pretty basic - just a runway and a place to park the aircraft. The North Vietnamese didn't have huge aviation complexes like the facilities we built.

I also know that the runway at Kep airbase, north of Hanoi, had an east-west orientation, give or take a few degrees.

for the NVAF airbases you might want to look at Jane's USAF sat. terrain. The only problem is that the images are a few years old so they wouldn't match the airbases 30 years ago. I'm sure there is video of these airbases being attacked. I know I saw a video of Kep airbase being bombed at low alt. on some documentary.

Lud:

I'm not sure that a general tutorial on developing airbase terrain would be useful or necessary.

If a scenery designer knows the basic layout and dimensions of a base, including the arrangement of buildings, runways, taxiways, ramps, etc., that should be sufficient.

Except for hangers and other structures that are located on the flightline itself or along taxiways, there is no need to produce detailed models of any buildings. After all, they would never be seen by a pilot except from above and at a distance. Just the basic shapes and relative heights of most buildings would suffice.

As for the structures on the flightline, it would only be necessary to develop a few generic models in various sizes, since the same kinds of structures were common to all the bases.

The following photo of part of the Ubon flightline will illustrate my point:



The same kinds of hangers and maintenance structures could be found on the flightlines of every base. Only their positions relative to each other would differ.

Admittedly each base had a few buildings close to the flightline that were truly unique in appearance, such as Ubon's control tower:



The only way that a scenery designer could model structures like this would be to obtain photographs or sketches from people who actually served on the base.

Maybe it would be a good idea to create some kind of directory listing the names and contact data of individuals who can be consulted for detailed info about specific bases and their environs. For Ubon, Andy Bush and myself could serve that role. (Oops! I apologize for volunteering your services, Andy!)

One thing that terrain designers MUST keep in mind is that the bases in Thailand and South Vietnam were constantly changing and expanding. For example, Ubon was only a primitive airstrip in 1964, but by 1972 it had evolved into a huge aviation complex. My point is this: Since it would be impossible (or at least highly problematic)to create several different versions of each airbase to reflect how it changed over time, designers should choose a middle point, say 1967 or 1968, as I did when I created my overhead views of Ubon, NKP, and Khorat.

The only other thing that comes to mind right now is that it is also important to correctly model the area in the immediate vicinity of each base. For example, the city of Ubon Ratchathani adjoined the southern boundary of Ubon RTAFB. At Khorat, the proximity of Camp Friendship would have to be taken into account.

To literally illustrate my point, here's a photo that shows what the area to the southwest of Ubon looked like. (Please ignore the formation of five F-4's in the foreground. They have nothing to do with the the topic I'm discussing!)



In this photo, the base can be seen at the top, and the Mun River is at the bottom. Between them is the western part of the city of Ubon Ratchathani. The central business district of the city (including the Mun River bridge) is just off the right hand side of the photo. (Note: If the need should ever arise, I have a series of close-up views of central Ubon that were taken from the roof of the Ubon Hotel.)

The same design principle that I mentioned in relation to non-flightline structures also applies to the city of Ubon. Since the city would only be seen from above and at a distance, the buildings would not have to be modelled in detail. Basic shapes would be fine.

Again, I suggest that we create a resource directory so that scenery designers can contact veterans and others who have first-hand knowledge about the areas surrounding US airbases.



[This message has been edited by Sleuths7 (edited 06-10-2002).]

That would fit right into the Real World section at the Skunk Works...BTW do you happen to have any close-up pics of the hangars and their interior?

If you've installed ICQ, my number is 50788099, it'll make for faster communication

Ajax:

Cameras were strictly forbidden in the flightline area at Ubon. Taking pictures of aircraft or the interiors of hangers was considered a major security violation.

Still, a lot of pictures of F-4's got taken, but I know of only one picture that was taken inside a small hanger. It shows an F-4 inside the WCS calibration hanger. Since the aircraft was the focus of attention, it doesn't show much of the hanger itself.



I assume that you were talking about the resource directory when you said that "it would fit right into the Real World section at the Skunk Works."

Although I suggested it as a way for scenery designers to identify and contact persons with first-hand knowledge about specific airbases, the scope of the directory should probably be much broader than that. For example, aircraft or cockpit modellers might want to get advice from a former pilot who actually flew the plane, or from a technician who worked on it.

I think you'll need to make an announcement about the directory and ask people who have certain kinds of real world knowledge to come forward and identify themselves and specify their area(s) of expertise.

Hey Sleuths7

Do you have a map of U-Tapao NAS, near Shattahip, Thailand. When I arrived in Thailand, a month and half into my second tour in Vietnam, my company stayed at U-Tapao NAS, for a few days, until our barracks were completed at Camp Vayama.

At the time, 18 March 1968, U-Tapao was the home of the Strategic Air Command B-52 bombers, flying missions into Vietnam.

I remember three things about U-Tapao NAS. First, their Mess Hall or maybe they called it a cafeteria, was larger than anything I had seen before, and had a great selection of food. I was in the Army and the Army never ate that well. The second thing I remember about U-Tapao airbase of the size of the runway. It must have been over 170 feet wide and more than a couple of miles long. I guess if you are going to get airborne with a fully loaded 52 bomber you need room to take off. The third thing I remember, is the unfriendly Military Police. I and a couple of other Army soldiers were counting the B-52s as they lifted off one morning. Next thing we know a couple of jeeps pull up near us, and MPs get out with rifles ready, and tell us to leave and to forget what we saw. We never knew if that was standard operating procedure or if they were simply harassing us.

U-Tapao NAS should be represented if one is doing a map of Thailand, especially since, B-52s were flying out of there to bomb targets in Vietnam.

Over and Out
Wired

Thank you! That's a very useful pic.

Indeed, that will come in time...some may be a long shot (any Draken pilot in the room? ) but it can be a very useful database for third-party purposes.