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Thread title is a quotation.And now another one:

Since over half a year reading the news of the CH comes down to this in which game played Flexman,or a mascot design-I think it's time, and fair to the many people who supported this project from the beginning will write whether we forget about this project,
or will be released,and if so, how much we will wait for the full version,because if the next 3-5 years it is probably not much point.
I think many people will wait for the official and final message.
Knock knock, is anyone brave ?

I may not know everything but in one of the latest e-mail I exchanged with Flexman (during the week-end) nothing had me to think that's near giving this up...

So, don't worry!

Regardless of whether it comes out in May or not, I hope Flexman and AD don't give up...it'd be a shame to see all that work go to waste, even if the released product is just the Gunnery Range. I've been following this project for three years now, and I'm still looking forward to it.

I'm still hopeful and fully support this project.

Banita,

You've put a few negative posts up regarding this project.

Keep in mind that these guys are doing this in their SPARE time and have had to deal with a couple of pretty serious mishaps (flooding being one of them).

Maybe their release date was a bit optimistic, but I'm sure they'd like to see it released as well. Not least so they can recoup some payment for all the hours spent on it.

You are entitled to your opinion and have every right to post it here, I'm just posting an alternative one.

Personally I think it's amazing that they've got as much done as they have given the situation. If we have to wait another three years, so what. It will probably still be a better sim than any on the market even then.

Patience brother, patience.

Cheers,

Andy

It`s only that we are short of heli simulations and with CH announcement there was new hope. Rich`s blog post`s are sometimes really depressing and I fear that this project will be abandoned. Some people are impatient (like me sometimes) and tend to do negative sounding post`s, but that`s common on public forums, not? It´s like a game, pishing for new informations.

I have quoted only the statement of Mr. Flexman before half a year.
I hope that for once keep your word,and finally find out whether the project is alive or not.
I wrote this as a man who supported this project from the beginning, wrote hundreds of posts on the blog.
We are serious people, or not?I fear that, unfortunately, not everyone.

I have hard time understanding this last post.

No offence intended.

Banita, he hasn't taken any money from you, neither does he owe you an explanation as to why CH is not out when you think it should be. I presume you are an adult? So, wait, it will be out when it's out.

It's not about me personally.I realized that some people do not keep any word.But check the blog, check FB Mass of people waiting for months for some information.And there is no ANY answer.Its fair? I think not.
edit:thats funny. here i'm alone, but on pm today I received many messages of support and thanks from strangers for this thread.


Last post here.Eot.

Banita,

I also have been following the development via the blog and here and at no time do I remember seeing a definate release date. It's always been "hopefully" or something like that. On the basis of that I don't think Flex has "not kept his word" as he didn't give it in the first place.

I disagree that it's not personal. You are the only person I've seen making these statements about not keeping of words on the forum. Yes, there have been a lot of people asking what's happening and I have been one of them, but I'd far rather they spent their time working on the sim instead of answering questions.

I honestly believe they will come through with the program and I wait with as much patience as everybody else.

I don't understand what you think is unfair. As MaceUK33 said, we haven't paid any money in advance.

If you feel unhappy with the way things have turned out simply don't buy the sim when it comes out. That way you won't have lost anything other than the time used to post on a forum.

Cheers,

Andy

Nobody owes anybody anything unless money or something similar exchanged hands as the result of some agreement that something would be owed as a result. Developers don't owe anyone any updates. It's not "unfair".

This kind of attitude has been rediculous lately, whether it's regarding Combat Helo or MS Flight or SF2:NA. People think that because they've followed development or purchased previous products that they are owed something, whether it's updates on development or that certain features be included in the next upcoming product.

Get over yourselves.

Agree with the previous post.

If anybody that follows these forums or the blog (or any other medium the development team uses) is unhappy with the status of this project, all you have to do is simply stop following it. This project has always been privately funded by an extremely small development team, who have family and personal lives outside of staring at computer code like it's the matrix. A customer paying money for a finished product is quite easy compared to committing several years of your spare time to a project such as this.

If, however, you still support the development, then support it. Provide encouragement and input where appropriate. We're all human, but let's please resist the urge to needlessly complain. It may make you feel better, but it does no good here.

^+1 Wish people could me more supportive of these ventures instead of trying to intimidate the developers. I'm really looking forward to small sim projects like this. Another small team is in a similar situation, Jet Thunder. And they get the same type of posts in that forum too.

I can't wait for this game. But I seriously doubt that b!tch!ng will make it arrive more quickly.

I don't believe developers should be held to 'promises', but if you're looking to sell, good communication is a courtesy, particular with many people here likely to pony up on the first day of release.
It would be appreciated if developers would offer a rough timeframe, such as 80% chance we will have product this quarter, or 6 months from now - gives you something to look forward to, and if they have to delay, no biggie.
I'm not the only one who kept waiting... and waiting... and waiting to upgrade because never really knew when SoW would come out (now waiting on patch, but at least they are more communicative these days).

We all know what happens when timetables and deadlines are attached to projects. = (angry supporters)

That's what I call great support...Sure I'll be disappointed if the game isn't released but what's the point in whining even before it's official?
And as everybody mentioned, most people haven't really invested anything other than forum/blog-time towards this project.

"Here's to the future, hear the cry of youth"

I'll second that. You've got a way with words fransky.

OK, folks, let's get back on topic please.

Good luck with the project Flexman!

Heck, Longbow2 will suffice till CombatHelo gets aloft.
Still rotating fine on my systems.

AV8R........

+1

+ Another 1

Cheers

My God, Man! Can it be? OZCOUGAR?!! Of Falcon 4 Tornado strike fame?!?

.... How's it going mate?

Cheers

Long time, no see! Hope you are well waaaay down there in the Oz World. You've been missed.

Thanks mate .... been sooo busy with RL and other sims I have barely had time to fly falcon except for the basic setup stuff with BMS. Also hanging out waiting for CH to launch (I have faith in the team that it WILL happen :D).

Anyway will try to catch up one of these days ....

Cheers

Is there anything a serious pain-in-the-$#@! like me can beta test and make recommendations to the devs on yet? Or is it still in early dev stages?

@ Reticuli: What?

If you have a chance can you let him know that we are interested in the project status. Haven`t seen a word about developing for CH in his twitter for weeks... He is writing a book or contribute to one? What about these tutorials he is writing for Leadwerks users? May be you can bring him to visit SIMHQ once more.

Hi EagleEye,
he's really really seriously caught up in real life.

But still things are moving forward.
By my side I can say good stuff is coming soon.




Cheers!

Komemiute is ... ? Fred?

As far as a status update goes ... The inter-city express that we once were now has about as much momentum as the rail car of Versailles fame. It's a real shame as we had sincerely hoped to be more than done by now. Rick's doing what he has to and I think he's long since become sick of my pep talks. It's a frustrating situation.

Cheers

Any update is better than no update at all.

Nope I´m not Fred. I´m the other guy.

Seriously now.
Real Life has its way to remind you what´s important.

Bills have to be paid. Each one of us has to.
No one says CombatHelo is dead.

Only Rick can.

Keep the faith.

Komemiute

For the first time I'm getting a bit worried about this project! I hope that everything is going well (even because this is the sim that I'm anticipating the most and by far) and this delay on updates is just a "little setback".

Anyway I agree with blabo, any update (even if it's a very small one) is better than no update at all.

UPDATE IS UP!

Unfortunally not the update that I was expecting.

It seems to me that the project is "almost dead"
Hope to be wrong but this is what it seems on my perspective...

Hopefully he find someone who can do that Kickstarter stuff.
Good luck with your book Flex!

@komemiute: Mossie patch looks great!

Thanks a bunch EagleEye!

It means a lot!

Just in case you can find me on DeviantArt too.

I'm open to commissions right now... :P

Yeah I'm a bi+ch...

IIRC all you really need for kickstarter is a US bank account.

You guys do know about Indiegogo, do you?
DO YOU?

http://www.indiegogo.com/learn/features

Can you not something similar to what the Project Zomboid devs did? Whereby they couldn't ask for money for an unfinished product apparently so they put up some crappy little arcade games they'd coded that you bought but you got Project Zomboid with it. Worked quite well I believe.

Please dont give up!!

Take youre time. Its better later than never. I would like to see this beauty. Your progress is fine what i have seen. Those pix were beautiful. I cross the fingers that everything will have an HAPPY END.


BEST WISHES


LC

Have you thought of developing this sim as a third party for dcs ? The dcs world is in dire need of an apache, lots of news going on over there with the addition of third party developers. Could be a win win for all.

You know, that is not a bad idea at all.

You can read his comment on CH blog about it: http://combathelo.blogspot.de/2012/05/i-dont-like-this-new-blogger-interface.html#comment-form

You can't deny though that a pay for 3rd party Apache model for DCS:World (especially given the Nevada/Edge terrain update on the horizon) addresses several problems facing CH. Like it or not CH will immeadiately be compared to BS2, and someone sooner or later is likely to release an Apache model for DCS:World if the platform is a success.

Or simply use project A to fund project B?

By the sounds of it if you don't get some capital you've reached a road block, and if someone were to make a captial investment in say TriCubic then to a degree you'll start to loose control too. Your market is BS2 owners so you'll get the DCS nuts (which are a minority) one way of another anyway.

Get in quick with DCS:World would be my advice, last thing you'd want is someone ripping off CH to make a module based on your hard work.

Good luck, look forward to your next blog post.

When we started developing Combat Helo we had a clear vision of what we wanted to accomplish, and that vision hasn't change much. As technically perfect as DCS is, it was an example of an area where we firmly agreed not to go.

Whether we use DCS as a base for a Longbow addon, or we move to another engine as a base, switching to a different platform at this point would set us back years of work. It would take nothing less than flipping the reset switch on 80% of the work already completed. By comparison, we're no more than a few months of graft away from having CH in a sale-able condition and having that project A (the target range beta) as the means to fund project B (Operation Ouroboros).

Cheers

Well all I can say is just keep at it .... I'm sure it will be worth the wait. I am still "of the faith" and remain positive that there will be a product for my cash.

Cheers

Nope, IMO again what the DCS world is in "dire need" is a dynamic campaign system or "war theather" (as well as other "immersive" features).
I'm glad that Flexman and AD seem to want to keep working on CH (instead of going into the DCS module way) and AD's post certainly reassured me on that.

And BTW, what's the point of having the EXACT same helicopter (incluind its system avionics, flight model, etc...) in two diferent and "competing" sims?

Thanks AD for the post. We need some heads-up here.
+1 ricnunes

I think the addition of combined arms is a step in the dynamic campaign direction for ED. My point is DCS is a functioning world with all sorts of big things to come. It seems they are more in position to develope a dynamic campaign and move the sim community forward than anyone out there. Combat Helo is on the brink of vaporware, it just seems logical to join forces with DCS even if it does reset the development clock.....whats the alternative ?....nothing

The indie sim community should be looking at ways to consolidate it's efforts, not splinter off on tangents. No way Combat Helo pulls off a dynamic campaign classic like falcon on it's own. Its gonna take a more massive effort than a small indie team with money issues.
If your talking dynamic campaign to the likes of strike fighters or il2, then I'll take the DCS missions any day over those.

Come to think of it, maybe the jet thunder guys could transfer all work over to dcs world...we might actually get something playable.

So far there's no information that was released by ED so far that indicates that "DCS combined arms" is a step in the dynamic campaign direction, at least not in the near or even medium term future. From what I read so far regarding "DCS combined arms" is that this is a step towadars having more playable aircraft and other playable vehicles/platforms (land vehicles, perhaps?) and that's it!
So unless I see something more clear regarding dynamic campaigns on DCS, the "DCS combined arms" or "DCS world" or whatever they want to call it is equal to having static, dull and without any replayability value campaigns!

What I see is if Flexman and AD joined with DCS the result would be an Apache (and perhaps a Chinook) in the same static, dull and without any replayability world/campaign of DCS! If the only other alternative for Combat Helo that that doesn't mean a "merge" with DCS is having "nothing" than I guess I prefer nothing. We already have DCS, we don't need great ideas of dynamic campaigns (and other great immersive features) being lost by merging with DCS. Sorry, this is my oppinion!
Resuming, I have absolutely NO interest in sims without any sort of dynamic campaigns.

Fortunally for me, I will still have the Strike Fighters series which as opposed to you I prefer its dynamic campaign A MILLION TIME over the static, dull without any replayability of DCS campaigns. I will also have Wings Over Flanders Fields which will also have an awesome dynamic campaign (see, in this case there was no need for "massive" amounts of money to make dynamic campaigns ) and of course I will still have Falcon 4 BMS or FreeFalcon, so as you can see I will still have alternatives with dynamic campaigns in the future even if Combat Helo doesn't come up (which I hope it doesn't happen, of course). Oh, and of course I was forgeting about the modded EECH as well!

Like I already said here in this post, a company doesn't need to have "massive" amount of money/resources to make dynamic campaigns as you said, a company just need to be smart managing it's resources, specially if they are scarse - For example in the DCS case: the ED guys instead of wasting resources making pointless aircraft like the P-51D (pointless for a modern warfare scenario which is what DCS models) they should use those same resources to make a DYNAMIC CAMPAIGN! Period, over and out...

You actually ARE missing something Ricnunes.

DCS Combined Arms not only adds controllable land vehicles (not aircraft), but allow to play DCS as a RTS.
That means that as soon as it's released someone here in SimHQ will SURELY start a RTS campaign and guess what, that's the best sort of DC avaialable! A dream come true.

Please read well what's written in the description od DCS: CA on its main page, it's REALLY interesting.
http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/series/combined_arms/

Regardless of the direction DCS is taking, COMBAT HELO IS STILL BREATHING. Flex is still keeping us in the loop:

http://combathelo.blogspot.com/

I'm still checking the CH dev blog and this forum daily for updates. Hold the faith everyone, I sure do.

And since when RTS (Real Time Strategy) means dynamic campaign??
Just out of my head most if not all campaigns in RTS games are STATIC or at best Semi-dynamic (but still most are STATIC) and never (or almost never) dynamic!

The only RTS games that I remember out of my head that have what we can call Dynamic Campaigns (DC) are the Total War series but don't forget that what really makes those campaigns truly Dynamic is the "Turn-base strategic map" part and not the "RTS" part itself.

I think the DCS world will be great with combined arms. You can't get more dynamic than having the entire battlefield populated by human players giving orders to all the forces. If you Don't play it doesn't bother me, I'm sure plenty will. No sim has jtacs directing you to targets like dcs, how is that dull and not immersive? Have you actually flown the dcs a-10?
Many of the sims you mentioned are more randomly boring and repetitive missions than truly dynamic. If you need some career mode to make a sim good for you then cool but I like the realism produced by dcs. That in it's self is immersive.

This Ricnunes! Or do we have to try to word it differently again?
REALLY can't you see it? I'm torn between thinking you are trolling OR there's a speech incongruence between us...

You know, there are multiple forums dedicated to DCS products. Just saying.



Good news! This is the sim I am most looking forward to playing. I grew up on Jane's Longbow, and this looks like it will be the spiritual successor.

I apologize...

If I only didn't loose all the work done with the Mossie...

Yes, I did play A-10 and yes I find it boring (Static campaign have a boring efect on me!) and NO I don't think that ANY OF the campaign in the sims I mentioned are anywhere repetitive since I can play the same campaigns several times in those sims and I always have a diferent experience a thing that NOBODY can have with any DCS campaigns! Perhaps the meaning of the word "repetitive" is for you diferent from it's real meaning
And yes, for me a sim MUST HAVE an offline career mode and preferably a Co-op mode. A sim that doesn't mode at least have some sort of offline career mode is NO SIM for me!!
This makes me wonder why are you here? It's clear that you don't value dynamic campaigns, offline and/or co-op campaigns/careers which curiously are the features that are highlighted with most in COMBAT HELO. Do you remember that this is the COMBAT HELO forum and not the DCS ones, right?

Like I said to Skoop, you do realize that this is the COMBAT HELO forum and not the DCS ones, right? Being said that the only incongruent one is you - This sim was made with the prime objective of reviving the 90's sims gameplay with it's dynamic campaigns and co-op playable campaigns and this is what I WANT for a sim! Being said this, I think you are much more closer to being a troll than I.
Lets get this straight, if I was posting this in the DCS sim you could perhaps have a slight amount of reason despite this being my oppinion and NO oppinion should be considered trolling since oppinions will always difer, no matter what! But NO, I'm posting why I think that the COMBAT HELO features are great and these should never be lost to DCS features (which are almost completly opposed to the Combat Helo features!) and it's really wierd, "funny" or perhaps even ridiculous seeing someone accusing another one of trolling when the "accused person" only defended Combat Helo and it's major dynamic campaign feature IN THE COMBAT HELO FORUM ITSELF!!

I'm appalled.

Happy for you.

It's pretty clear Ricnunes isn't interested in online multiplayer like DCS Combined Arms. Neither am I. In all honesty, DCS is about as far removed from a 90's type sim you can get, the gameplay of which Combat Helo aims to resurrect. So saying the CH team should release the AH-64 as a module for DCS completely misses the point of what Combat Helo is about.

I'm actually convinced that people skipping Online MP only do it because they're either not properly into a proper Co-op community (like SimHQ- these guys host some SERIOUS TACTICAL gaminig. I'm impressed, day after day...) or maybe simply afraid of not being "pro" enough (which is a shame 'cause you only get good by doing).

Still, I REALLY LOVE CH, I REALLY LOVE taking my small part in developing it and can't wait to have it...

Yes, that's exactly what I mean! I think you resumed what I feel in this regards in a much better way that I did, thanks Evil Flower.

Actually the only online multiplayer mode that I play and like is Co-op and the reason is very simple: CO-OP is exactly the same thing as SINGLE PLAYER with the only diference being that instead of having AI wingmen/friendlies only (Single player) you also have other humans together with AIs as wingmen/friendlies (Co-op). And even so, I don't play Co-op as much as single player because I have a quite busy personal life (as well as professional) and multiplayer modes such as Co-op doesn't have the "Pause" which I often require when playing computer games.

Well I could also argue that people that play Online MP Team versus Team are people that don't have a personal life (and therefore have lots of "spare time") and feel frustrated by it and the only way that they can have a personal life and to release their personal frustration is by "killing someone" (virtually) over the internet!
Anyway both the arguments that I posted just above AND YOURS are just plain ridiculous since in the end prefering to play single player/co-op or TvT MP is just a matter of personal taste, just like some people like red, other like blue and others like green, etc... and this doesn't mean that whoever likes red is more professional/serious/etc... than for example who likes blue!
I guess your post clearly shows that you simply don't have any respect by oppinions which are diferent than yours... Well, who's the "troll" now??

I also find odd that you claim that serious co-op players should always like Online MP TvT modes since in reality the Co-op modes are much more similar to Single player than they are to Online MP TvT modes (despite Co-op and TvT modes being MP online modes).




Another very strange quote! Why would you like a game that will only or basically be played by people that in your oppinion skips "Online MP only because they're either not properly into a proper Co-op community or maybe simply afraid of not being "pro" enough"?? You contradict yourself too much, really!

Everybody, can we please get back to discussing Combat Helo? I understand that due to the slowdown of the development, news/updates are slowing down as well; but let's please not use these threads as a bashing contest to pass the time.

By the way, I'm prepping a new Illustration for CH!
Should be nice!

Ric,
I get what you are saying about dynamic campaigns, I like them too. I really hope CH delivers all they have promised and proves me wrong.

In the mean time I suggest you take a look at some of the missions created by the community for dcs a-10, lots of well done missions with hundreds of triggers to make it very dynamic. My personal favorite is the "on station" mission thats does a great job at simulating CAS directed by jtacs.

It sounds like you are describing an "Air Quake" TvT environment, but seriously 90 % of dcs mp servers are coop. Most TvT is in FC2.

I still think it's a great idea for the CH team to explore the possibility of creating a dcs apache module and create some cash for their own project in the long term. I would buy both sims if they are completed.

In my experience the vast majority of TvT games/sessions do become "Quakes" no matter what game or gametype (Flight sim, FPS, etc...) we are talking about and also it doesn't matter if the games are "realistic" or "arcade".




One of the problems is that there's absolutely NO garantees that CH gets funded or enought funds by creating an Apache module for DCS (and it was Flexman himself that said this!) and together with this you have the FACT that the DCS sims gameplay is basically the complete/total opposite to what will be CH gameplay and finally add the FACT that DCS sims and CH are inded competing sims (no matter what anyone says and also doesn't matter if both devs don't ackowlege this in public) and with this you'll see enough reasons why for Flexman and his staff doing an Apache (or Chinook) module for DCS isn't a that great idea.

IMO, I think that Flexman and his staff would be better of and better funded if they used the "Kickstarter" project. Kickstarter seems really a great way to get funds and I really advise Flexnam to at least give a look at it, perhaps this the best way for "indie" developers to get funds currently available.

You're playing with the wrong people ... but then again, the reason why most of these turn into 'quakes' is because the vast majority are unable or unwilling to keep up with the skills needed to play with the 'right people'. Can't blame them much




Yeah, that was Flexman's decision, and he knows why he's making it.



How do you know? Flexman and his crew may intend something, but you're talking as if you had a crystal ball here ... it's ok though, a lot of us have been there. I'm not sure how you came up with this antithesis in gameplay when you haven't played CH.



Is that Flexman's opinion? I mean, he may think so as well, but that isn't what he said - so I believe



He's got about as much a guarantee to get funded through KS as he does through making a DCS module. KS worked for some people. It really does not work for everyone.

Flex stated he CAN'T use KS, IIRC...
There are other opportunities, luckily.



Flexhimself
"It is a frustrating situation. Kickstarter has been mentioned by some readers. They are popular atm, seems every man and his dog is funding re-makes on it. Unless I can find a business development manager to set-up a US based entity it's not going to be an option for us. I don't have the time or experience of US business law to set one up. One UK developer (Carmageddon) recently had to do just that, I envy them."

They should use indiegogo fundraiser system. Beczl is using this for funding his DCS mig21 development. I'd be happy to chip in 30-40 euros in CH, if it would speed up the development process.

Thought about that to, when seen that BECZL is using it. Could`t be that hard to set up an indiegogo account? But I think that Flex is aware of indiegogo and surely have thought about it...

If you look into both sims features you have for DCS:
- Static Campaigns (sequence of single missions that you must acomplish in order to play the next mission and end the campaign). This campaign always end in the same way which is after you sucessfully end the campaign's last mission you win the campaign.
- More detail/priority regarding flight, avionics and damage model -> Claimed to be the most realistic/close to reality in these regards ever seen in a sim and even in some cases claimed to be "same as reality".
- Resuming, as opposed to the 90's sims DCS sims gameplay is modeled around the aircraft/platform itself and not so much regarding the "surrounding world".

For CH you will have (at least what is planned):
- Dynamic campaigns where you get diferent missions everytime you play/restart the campaign where you can lose a mission and still play the "next one". Actually the way you play your missions will dictate which missions or kind of missions will "spawn" after and also the campaign's final outcome (success, failure, etc...)
- While realism regarding flight, avionics and damage model is a goal, these realism features are planned to be an aproximation to reality rather than an "exact replica" to reality (as it's planned in DCS). A higher priority is planned to go towards more detailed/immersive gameplay features such as dynamic campaigns with persistent world, pilot career, etc...
- Resuming, just as in the 90's sims CH gameplay seems that will be modeled around the pilot itself and the world around him/her and not so much around the aircraft/platform itself.


Well, I can't see a bigger antithesis in gameplay regarding sims than this!





Don't know if this is Flexman's oppinion or not, you'll have to ask him but both sims (DCS and CH) are directed to the same "audience"/customer base therefore like it or not they are competing games (or sims if you prefer).





Nope, with Kickstarter you pleage a value (for a certain amount of time/days) without selling anything (at least immediatly) and if you get the designed pleaged value you get that money (again without selling or finishing your game). The worst case scenario would be not to get the pleaged value and you would get back to where you started -> without getting any money but also without losing money.
Selling CH as a DCS module you would first need to finish the game (invest from your pocket) and worst case scenario is if you don't get enough sales you would end up expending more than you get from sales income and all of this for a "direct competing" sim.

Not true, Beczl with its Mig21 is doing a DCS module that's being funded with an option like Kickstarter = he is getting money before the completion of the module.

Hmm, the primary factor is spare time now, me thinks. What is AD doing in the meantime?

Flex`s Twitter:

For years I have been looking and watching for a Longbow / EECH replacement. Flexman gave me hope. His (and his teams) struggle have been long and hard. I would not blame them I he/they gave up. I might hope in vain, but In my heart I know that I will be there paying for the game if it ever gets released.
Had I had any usefull software making skill I would have provided them, but as it is it is not the case.