How to dogfight in Mirage 3C ?

Does anyone have a clue how you can dogfight in Mirage 3C? (In hard mode, of course).

I must confess I can achieve nothing at all with it. It is completely inferior to Mig-17, Mig-19, Mig-21, you name it!

I think I now understand how you can turn it, but that's all. I start losing energy from the first seconds of an engagement to never ever recover.

It must be the IAF pilots were true geniuses or something is not right?

You do not dogfight in a Shahak, it is that simple!
maybe against Mig-21s, it is possible to stay and turn and burn, but against Mig-17s or 19s such a tactic is suicide.

keep your speed up between 350 and 400 knots and never turn more than 120° with an enemy, if you do not nail him during such a 120° turn, unload and get away as fast as you can;
your Shahak is faster than anything in full burner, you can even outrun Mig-21s in the game;
try and fight in the vertical, but you have to be a well disciplined energy fighter to do this successfully.
(coming from flying FW-190s in IL-2 helps a loooooot here :D)

with a little practice, your kill rate will rise, but stay alert constantly;
I have been killed by the odd fighter I have not seen more than once already, especially those Jordanian Hunters are deadly opponents!

cheers
BL

Well I too had a lot of trouble with the IIICJ at first.

I eventually discovered that the problem was that I pulled to much on the stick when turning and ran out of energy.

Try to mostly turn just by banking, if needed just pull lightly on the stick.
DO NOT! try to keep beaking hard for a long time. if you break hard do it only for a few seconds.
If the MIG gets behind you, slow down by pulling hard on the stick put the airbreaks out and roll. Make him over shoot.
This was a favorit IAF pilot maneuver and I feel like I'm fling historicaly wehn I end up using it a lot. BTW, I do manage to get behind MIG-21S Just by banking without pulling hard on the stick.

I am now able to get multiple gun kills per mission.
And can hit maneuvering targets with my 30mms.

BL is right: The right method is really a bit like the FW 190.
Keep your airspeed up while keeping an eye on the fuel gauge! At high speeds, the Mirage is actually quite maneuvrable, like all deltas. Above let say 400 knots you can outturn anything as fast as you.
I had the same problems as you but meanwhile I love the Shahak!
MiG-17s are still a problem, but there you simply don't dogfight at all, simply hit and run.
I score a lot of kills in Mirages, even 1967 without missiles (i modded the campaign as the IAF didnt have AIM-9Bs).
Its the friendly AI that can't handle the Mirage. Those Schmocks get themselves killed over and over again....
WOI gives you an idea why the Israelis demanded the Mirage 5: The basic fighter was just what the Israelis needed, only there was a lot of unecessary balast in form of the all-weather intercept equipment. In WOI you hardly need the radar, except in boresight mode, so you can safely throw it overboard. That's exactly what was done to create the Mirage 5

Well, thanks for the advice, I'm on it!

@AntEater

Frankfurter you got PM

Are the Mig-17s still "juiced" in this sim ?

The real Mig-17s controls locked up at 425 knots...just stay at 450 and ignore him, get in lag pursuit, or go vertical. If you stay out of gun range, he has nothing

But again when I last gamed WOV the Mig-17 were on steroids. I hoped this was addressed in WOI.
If it was addressed it would put a whole new and real spin on fighting Mig-17s


The corner radar "cheat" is useless. It should be an Artificial Horizon the way B.O.B 2 has

You can mod that radar out pretty easily by editing your HUD's INI file. Check the knowledgebase over at CombatAce.

Israeli pilots had trouble figuring out the Mirage when they first received it back in the early 1960s, too. It didn't maneuver with the MiGs and Hunters. The Cyrano radar was useless, and so were the Matra missiles. The cannons were tough to aim, as well. Obviously, they figured the Mirage out, and darned quickly!

I had a feeling somebody was going to tell me I could edit the radar out, thanks I will try

The IAF is good. They also benefit from short flight time to the front, opponents who were not as well trained as they were, good GCI, aggressive ROE, and a target rich environment.
I think much like the Tuskeegee airman story someday we will find out that the IAF are not airborne supermen.
I hope I can figure out the Mirage 3 as quickly as they did

I mostly press Alt-D, then the radar screen and info are gone. No mod needed. In WOE/WOV you need to assign the key first.

I will goof with it. I do want an artificial horizon and the info. I tend to get strange AOA with WOI because of any sims lack of feedback

LOL! Yeah, there ain't much you can't mod with this sim.

Something I was reading the other day, the Mirage's gunsight gave the IAF pilots fits. It wouldn't compute range properly. Finally, they jury-rigged three standard settings for the gunsight: short, medium, and long. Pilots would estimate their range and switch to one of the settings.

Given how tough hitting anything with the cannon is in WOI, I wonder if TK simulated the goofy gunsight, too ... ?

I am re-reading my Osprey book on it now, there is some info the sim world can use in these

Heh ... yeah, I ordred all the Osprey books about the IAF and Arab air forces after I got WOI. That's one of the things I really love about flight simming, reading up on the topic as I'm learning the game. Fun way to study history.

Man, I have way too many Osprey books. I know they're not always completely accurate, but they sure do provide a great, quick overview -- and the aircraft profiles are nice!

Another problem the IAF had is that the shell fuse was tuned for bombers, therefore, it exploded too late for fighter size aircraft (the shell hit, crossed the aircraft and exploded later).

The interest with the Mirage is its nose authority : you can "break" your speed quickly and make fantastic turns, then you ease up and regain quickly the lost speed : this is how you fight against the Mig21 or you can get rid of an opponent in your six. This is a good tactic when you have reliable missiles because during a head on pass, you can have the first shot (but if you miss, you are in great troubles).

I am glad the sims dont fuse bombs or bullets, 1 less thing to worry about

From Full Metal Jacket :

"Its easy - ya just dont lead as much." ; )

That movie had some great 1 liners....but typical goofy hollywoodism as well

So, in the Mirage I want to stay fast and use energy fighter tactics, Just like I fight with the F4 Sledgehammer.

Is the bouncy nose porpoising of the Mirage correctly simulated ?
Did it really fly this way ?