MK108 with Test08

Wooow what an upgrade! Mk108 is a serious weapon now with Test08, I can't believe it! Usually 1 shot one kill, sometimes two shots, few times I have seen a weird result but hey nothing is perfect in this world I have so far finished operation with G-2 and last night with G-6 so that's about 60 missions. As of today I'm starting G-6 Late and I'm having a lot of fun again! Finally FB is as it really should have been when it came out, for me the fun is back Of course still some issues to resolve but nothing serious as with FB 1.0. G-6 Late is really cool plane to fly after flying G-6 standard. I love this sim, bring on the patch!

Peter

Ahoj Peter

sure your right, but why should be the G6 Late better performing than G6 standard? The wider undercarriage, the armored glass behind the pilot, the wooden tail, the same engine, the same aerodynamics... the same plane. Damn, but that "6" bird should be only a _bit_ worse performing than G2, which is awesome..

I find both g6's and indeed all messers perform quite well in FB and patch 08.

The G-6 Late accelerates in FB test08 slightly better than the standard G-6 because I believe of the new streamlined Erla Haube canopy. In terms of stability it is also slightly better due to high tail that G-6 late has. Anyway I did 35 missions with standard G-6 and then went to G-6 late (really G-6 Erla) and I do notice the difference. Not sure at this point of the G-6 Late is using wooden or metal tail. So many gustavs to play with in FB, I love it

With Test08 I can now fly in 1280x960 using and I'm getting around 30 - 60FPS in the cockpit, amazing! I couldn't do this in FB 1.0.

My comouter:
AMD XP 2700+ (@2.3Ghz), nForce 2 deluxe - dual channel
1GB 333DDR (@2x177Mhz)
Asus GF4Ti 4200 128MB AGPx8 (@300Mhz/600Mhz)
Audigy 2
Wink2Pro + SP4

Using OpenGL, all graphics maxed out (no perfect terrain though), trilinear flitering, no texture compression, 3D audio on - maximum detail, 16 channels 44Khz.

To what do you attribute this success? What has changed with the modeling of the Mk108?

1) Is it that the recoil dampening has made your firing more accurate?
2) Is it that the shells are no longer spraying around at ridiculous trajectories so that even a "can't miss" shot could miss?
3) Is it just that each landed shell is more destructive?

how is the p47

P47 has absolutely nothing to do with a Mk108 cannon.

Ugly as ever, why do you ask? :p

I would definitely say that recoil has been toned town and it also seems to me that shells fly better more straight so I'm more accurate, heck I can even do a deflection shot with MK108 now Something I couldn't do much in IL2 or FB 1.0. Also maybe plane damage modeling or Mk108 shell damage has changed (maybe both ?). I was chasing Hurricanes MK II, Yak-1B, Yak-7B, Yak-9T, La-5F, LaGG-3 43 model, P-39 N-1 and I had no problem scoring kills. I wonder how much things will change with final release of the patch coming August 4th.

Peter

Peter Fisla wrote:
Perish the thought!!! But I know that *has* happened before!! Here's hoping they don't "re-nerf" the Mk108 between 08beta and gold patch!!!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I'm curious as to how the spins are modelled in the patch? I noticed that in IL2 1.2 the spins actually took some skill to recover from and in FB 1.0 the planes auto recover when you let go of the stick. Is this changed with the patch?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I can only speak for G-2, G-6 and G-6 late: with Test08 spins are modelled better or more leaning towards IL2 1.2 rather than FB 1.0.

Peter

I've read that they als ochanged some 3D models (cockpits?) in the current patch. I'd like to know if the P-47's gunsight has a higher poly count now? That gun sight is the worst one in the whole game. Did they fix the mirror bugs in the Hurri and P-40?

Concerning the 3D models: all I know if is the 190D, but I can't compare pre-patch now, I had to reinstall, but I'm into an interesting fighter campaign at the moment (6 kills only, ~18 missions in a A4)

Stiglr, pull your horns in!

The 108 is by far the most effective weapon in the game, & you're all whining & moaning for it to be made better???

You ARE kidding, right?

I too noticed the change in the Mk108. I havn't had much time in the 262, but what struck me first was the rate of fire seemed increased but that could be just me.

Anyhow, set up a QMB: 262 v 1xPe-8 + 1xDb-3 + 1xLi2 (I think) + 1xIl-2.... just for a bit of fun. Needless to say all 4 Soviets went down on the first pass, except for the Pe-8 which took 2 due to bad 1st pass. I was totally surprised that it took only 1 or 2 second bursts to bring these planes down, and it wasn't just a damaged wing or smoking engine. These planes were literally blown out of the sky in hundreds of pieces!

You can imagine my surprise when I realised that I was only firing two of the 108'sthe whole time, since my Couger with its two stage trigger is in the shop and I was using the ol' MS FFB1

more specifically, how are the .50s on the p47 (since we are talking about changes to the guns

We're tallking about changes to the Mk108 specifically, NOT .50 cals.


Keep up, will ya?

Stilgr,

Strange, I have no trouble making deflection shots with the thing. In fact, I consistently hit a target on the dead six profile from range 0.25.

Perhaps you are referring to the 30mm wing gunpods, which show a very bad tendency to spray from recoil.

Other than my gripe with the quirky damage modelling in FB 1.0, I don't think I have come across a better gun than the Mk108.

Hmmmm.... I really wonder. Not trying to cast doubts on your statments old chap, nor am I saying that you are a poor shot. I mean I wouldn't dream of doing that since I am talking to arguably the most accomplished pilot from 9/JG 52 - The Karaya Staffel, what with all your medals and decorations displayed at your squad's website in such abundance all the way up to the Ying Yang. Maybe one day, when I get a good connection up and running from my currently rather lame server, I should like to meet you online just to see how good you are *throws down the gauntlet*

You know he must be good if he gave the medals to himself. :rolleyes:

Mossey,

I don't think he gave himself those medals.

Perhaps you need to rephrase your comment.

HTR

Yep, I can definitely do deflection shots with MK108 now, this thing is deadly August 4th is just around the corner, now all I need is sound to be fixed (sound volume) and I'm set, HL here I come

Two another things helped me with my shooting accuracy:

1) Resolution, I switched from 1152x864 to 1280x960 and somehow the simulation is more smoother, black magic ? Perhaps

2) Joystick settings, I use M$ Sidewinder Precision 2 and I found out that Oleg's recommended settings from IL2 patch 1.2 seems to help a lot. I then tweaked those values to fit my 109s controls. One important thing however I just discovered few days earlier are upper values. Example instead of setting my pitch from 7 - 100 I now use 7 - 97 and it seems to help a lot!

Peter

Peter - IIRC 1280x960 is considered a 'standard' resolution, I think it's a 'proper' ratio unlike 1152 or whatever. It's probably smoother due to H/V syncing etc.

That'd be my guess.

As far as I know the low muzzle velocity of the Mk108 made it a poor weapon against fighters, especially when it came to deflection shooting...

If this aspect of the weapon is not reflected, then the Mk108 won't be correct in my opinion.

But then again, who cares about performance accuracy, it's all about ego boosting isn't it ?

Based on what are you stating that, I believe that's a very broard statement. I would say in IL2 or FB1.0 it wasn't treated as well it is now with Test08, of course my personal view only. That's all I'm saying, also I have only tried this against AI, once final version will be out and assuming there won't be MK108 changes from Test08 to final I will try it on HL which I believe is an important test as well.

I'm still waiting for this book to come out to learn a lot more about air guns of WW2 planes:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1840373962/103-4772698-5025442

Peter

Sorry no, 1152x864 is also proper aspect ratio resolution Seems to perhaps it has something to do with IIL2:FB or my graphics card/driver combo.

Peter

Poor weapon against fighters ?

Well, you need to qualify that statement.

Obviously, if you open fire from long range your chances of hitting are slim with the low velocity and arcing trajectory of the 30mm round.

But most of us drive the attack real close to the target before opening fire...like Hartmann.

At that range there's hardly any talk of deflection.

I'm not asking for the Mk108 to be a great deflection weapon. That's other people talking.

What I don't want to happen is that it is somehow possible to miss a d0.25, dead six shot on a Sturmovik when neither of you is pulling G. With the old Mk108 modelling, that was *entirely* possible and actually plausible. Someone turned the "arcade" setting on a recorded track with this weapon and noticed that the trajectories of Mk108 rounds were very odd, going sideways and whatnot. Not only that, the weapon seemed to have an inordinate % of "dud" rounds that would do little damage to a plane when it did hit. (I recall specifically a online mission in VEF onetime where me and another guy pumped SIX Mk108 rounds into a Yak from close range and dead 6:00; he showed NO damage until the sixth round, when he exploded)

This is what I want to see addressed (and from all indications, it has been fixed).

As for Harry the Ruskie (your Mom make up that name? Or does she only dress you funny? )

If you would bother to do a little more reading on my squad site, you'd notice a couple of things with regards to awards I've "won"...

1) The requirements for the baubles are all well spelled out on their own page; I did not "give" them to myself.
2) Each mission we flew has a link to the actual log file, so you can see who we flew against, who we shot down...and how we rtb'd in order to claim the kills. Maybe track down those squads and ask if those missions aren't what we claim them to be.
3) I wasn't the most accomplished pilot in my squad, by a longshot. In the early months of IL-2, I had a guy earn his Knights Cross with Diamonds while noone else in the squad had gotten the "Cabbage" to their KC.

Further, my squad has been inactive all this year, and most of them have reformed under a different moniker (while I moved my residence to another state and have been dealing with other life issues). In the event that I do restart my squad I will be all too happy to take you and yours on, provided it's a realistic competition: none of those arcade/medium settings. Then you can judge for yourself if I can fly or not. Consider your gauntlet now wet and slippery from being spat upon.

Hey, don't get your knickers into a knot. I was only messing with ya.

And besides, it wasn't me who accuse you of giving all those medals to yourself...it was that guy 'Mossey'. Look at my post in reply to Mossey...I was defending you against his remarks!

You shot down the wrong guy Poor shooting pal. Harry the Ruskie is just a nickname, unless on that basis, are you are suggesting that Stilgr is your real name? *Still girl" ?? Oh dear. How did that come about? "Be still girl" *spank* *spank*

HTR

Check your spelling. Then revise the joke. If you can.

You may not have come out and out and said I didn't earn the medals like Mossie did, but you inferred it. The challenge would apply to both of you knaves.

And I'm not *that* upset. All in fun, y'know.

FWIW, I have "borrowed" my moniker from a real 28-kill Luftwaffe ace named Franz Stigler. He and his wife call me "Junior" in jest.

You are a touchy chap aren't you?

Ah well.

The information about the poor ballistics of the Mk108 are well known.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html

The MK 108 was put into service because the fight against Allied heavy bombers required a 30 mm cannon that was compact and light enough to be installed in single-engined fighters. The MK 108 used the APIB operating principle of the Oerlikon guns. It was less than half the weight and bulk of the MK 103, and much cheaper to produce, but it also had a much lower ballistic performance. Fighters could carry two or even four MK 108s. This gun had a heavy punch, but because it was a short-range weapon fighter pilots had to get close to their targets, normally opening fire at 300 m. Its use required strong nerves and better training than German pilots received during these last phases of the war. Some effort was made to increase the rate of fire, and a 850 rpm version was apparently perfected, although too late to be adopted.

As for the Mk108 against fighters :
http://www.bf109.com/twgunsarticle.html

Some K series were built with the MK 108 instead (and some G-series were retrofitted with it as the U4 modification) in order to achieve greater destructive power against bombers, but the low muzzle velocity made it difficult to hit fighters with this gun.

As far as I am concerned, E. Gustin and Tony Williams seem most competent guys when it comes to WW2 guns...

I also hope that the NS-37 will have a proper recoil. Something tells me that it is very mild, too mild, in the beta08...

I'll grant you these 30mm weapons did not have good ballistics, NNTym. Nobody's arguing that point. But, read that paragraph again: nobody is talking about scoring with long range shots, either.

When you DO get in close and the weapon STILL misses (which it does with *alarming* frequency in IL-2 and FB 1.0)...that's what we are talking about.

I'm not looking for a can't miss wonder weapon. I know that when I take the 30mm "whuppin' stick" I'm taking added nose weight, decreased maneuverability and a very short clip. The tradeoff is that I should only need one or two hits to get the job done. That's a fair tradeoff. But I don't want to have to fire half the magazine at d 0.25 and zero deflection to get that one hit.

The ballistics were such that deflection shots and medium to long range shots are dicey. I'm fine with that. But the weapon wasn't so bad that you couldn't hit with it at point blank range half the time.

Well there you go NN Tym, I fire all my canons MG151/15, MG151/20 and Mk108 from 0 to 100m max.
Since all 109s don't have a lot of canon ammo from my perspective it doesn't make sense to do long-range engagements with enemy fighters. Like I said before 'poor fighter weapon' is a relative term.

Peter

Absolutely Stiglr.

Everyone dreaming of a MK108 hitting nothing at around 150m! or less - as it was since IL-2 V.1.0 - (until we started this patch cicle) should go ahead and dream along!

It never was a sniper rifle - nor does anyone wants this, but at least it shouldn't come off the barrel in a "role & dice" pattern
Just to put that strait.

Regards

150 is short range, not point blank, not the distance described by Hartmann anyway... At such a distance the target fills the gunsight, not the windscreen...

When the Normandie pilots fought alongside the Russians, they were considered very good shots. When asked how they could hit that easily, they said they routinely fired at 150 m or under. This was common distance to hit with weapons in the nose for them.

Pilots of the Luftwaffe was ordered to start firing on B17 at 300m with the Mk108. Given the rapid closure and the size of the target, this puts the 150 m on a fighter way off.

I have set my convergence at 200m for both my guns in a Yak. The Russians guns have a much better velocity than the Mk108 and this is the minimal distance to achieve a hit on a defending target.

If you DREAM of a Mk108 that will hit consistently a fighter jixing at 150m then, you can dream of anything, and talk about laser guns.

Once again, you are putting words in our mouths.

Who's talking about hitting a jinking fighter at 150 meters? I'm talking about converting a shot of a non-maneuvering Sturmo at that range... and closer.... and having that gun miss as often as it hits. It's the total inconsistency that we're discussing here.

At any rate, these problems are being reported as fixed, so now I suppose you can begin posting about how the weapon should be as accurate as a single shotgun pellet at all ranges. Feel free.

NN Tym,

please RELAX!

I don't know about what and what not those French guys shoot and hit during the war.

But I do know, thats that whats coming off the nose of a firing MK 108 in FB. v1.0 is just "Final Fantasy"! Go into zoom view and watch the trajetory(sp)of the bullet.

Oleg Maddox and laser swords?
Certainly not!

by the way.
We send more then one document of german weapons and their figures to Oleg.
Result is the next patch. 08 isn't final code.

But it ain't uber - like it or not.

A cannon grenade of that size didn't fly like 20mm high velocity bullets. Sure! Especially if the barrel is as short as the one of the MK108. But the Luftwaffe never! had weapons uncapable to hit a target at 50m! as it happens to be in the currend release.

In fact evaluating the MK108 balistic properties and dispersion is not an easy task.
First there were several revision of the M-Geschoss shell, the C version being much more precise but suffering from some percussion trouble, the shell not exploding under certain condition (speed, angle of impact).
Dispersion contrary to ballistic is made worse by long barrel, which are more suceptible to vibration than short barrel. But longer barrel provide more rotational speed and higher muzzle velocity hence better balistics. Ballistic being considered here as the vertical trajectory of the shell.
Hence a short barrel provide bad ballistics, and as such reduce the useful range, but in the other hand the precision is enhanced as barrel vibration are not as bad as in longer weapons.

I think this drawing will enlight you :

read the mention at the bottom carefully.

""Die Rumpfwaffen liegen in der Zielbreite, (not drawn)"" 0,125% of the distanc !!!

What is 0,125% from 300?


IS it that?

Okay,

Let's say, I assumed *some* wanted a super Mk108 for deflection shooting against fighters. If you want a good weapon for bomber hunting then the Mk108 may have been a good tool, and should be modelled as such.

Anyway!

It will hit your *rse !!!

Yes dispersion is 0.125% of the distance on the MK108, but keep in mind that the very curved trajectory makes deflection and long distance shooting harder.
I'll publish more dispersion data in the days to come.

Note IIRC : this deflection % is given as a radius not a diameter.
This value is probably based on the Auf C M-Geschoss shell which was not fully debugged by early 45 and not yet available to front line units. Double the values for the Auf A which was quite unstable.

I have something about velocity MK 108 c2.
And some others - weird stuff I have to look if I found some usefull here.

Butch, what was your email?

Listen:

Größte Höhe der Geschoßflugbahn uber Visierlinie bei :


MK108 etwa 64cm bei 250 Meter Entfernung.

found one of my docs
(its a graph)

(its a sniper)

I have quite a bit of doc on the Auf C M-Geschoss including the aforementionned test of which here is an extract :
"Die Grenzauftreffgeschwindigkeit, für did der zünder für MK108 noch anspricht, ist noch unsicher.
Genaue untersuchungen insbesondere auch kleinen auftreffwinkeln und massnahmen zur verbesserung, erscheinen erforderlich. Die grenzauftreffgeschwindigkeit liegt für senkrechten auftreffwinkel bei 200 bis 250m/s.
Für 200 und 250m/s mindestansprechgeschwindigkeit werden die kampfentfernungen je nach kampfhöhe und gegnergeschwindigkeit für z.Zt. an der front befindliche A-Geschoss und für das B-Geschoss wie folgt eingeschränkt"

Here is my address Dietger :
admin@allaboutwarfare.com


The precision you mentionned is probably for the Auf A kind of Shell as with the C dispersion radius is about 30cm at 250m...

I find it hard to believe that some people are having trouble hitting the target in FB 1.0 with the Mk-108 at 150 or less.

Certainly there's some deflection involved and you need to cant the nose up a bit to lead..really depends on target profile and direction of travel.

Well just so that no one can accuse me of bullsh*tting I recorded plenty of tracks of multiple kills in QMB at ranges of 200 to the so called 'point blank' and all against the Ace AI.

The only gripe I have is the damage modelling of FB, wherein some planes like the Yaks display a remarkable resistance to multiple 30mm rounds.

HTR

Not to mention atmospheric conditions, ie, time of year, air density, wind velocity and wind direction, temperature etc… Also the condition of the pilots brain, ie, schnapps, brew or vino the night before..

P

Agreed!

Unforunately those are not moddeled in the Sim


So we just start with what we have: bullets, granades and its trajetory - those! are modelled

So and you Voodoo doctors can stick with your candles - we otherguys try to get things strait in the mean time so all can enjoy FB and this great sime gets even better.

:p

S!

MK108 reaches 250m/s @ 700m.
its MK108 c2-6.1 from 20.7.44

Regards

The document i quoted dates from January or february 1945 IIRC at which time you can clearly read that the shell still wasn't fully debugged and was not yet used by frontline units.

Understood.

The doc I send you dates from 20.7.44

testing the 3cm M-Geschoss Patr. 108 m.-Zerl. (108 c 2 - 6.1 from 20.7.44)

I understand that 200-250 m/sec is for a 90° impact. They wrote about the A type and a B type as well. ANd they mention more test are necessary for SMALER angles?

Oleg mentioned angle had a gerat impact on "performance". That is probably those "SMALER ANGLES" that means less then 90° - ok I beginn to understand.

Small angle are generaly considered as under 30°, but i don't remember whether the full report precise the exact angle at which the problem begin.
IIRC they are some tables along with the report mentionning the maximum at which to fire depending on the relative aircraft speed.
I'll send you the full report...once i find it back...

Thanks again Butch.
Hopefully we can end the "MK108 war" once and for all.

From some screens that were posted in IB's patch feedback thread the P47 pit looked just the same. The gunsight still lacked polys and the red warning light on the top left of the dash looked still stuck on all the time. Seems like this one missed the boat. I was really hoping for some changes, especially with the West Front maps on the way.

Oh well, maybe in the next patch

MOG