Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII

Posted by: Anonymous

Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/04/02 08:02 AM

Hello All

There has been a lot of misinformation posted on these boards about how many planes the Germans lost versus the Soviets or versus the Western Allies.

For example, the Soviet Official claim of 44,000 German aircraft shot down has been taken by many as being fact, when it is actually Stalinist propaganda.


Here are some figures on Aircraft losses for the Luftwaffe. They come from “Luftwaffe” by Williamson Murray a British author. His sources for the losses were the actual German records sent by each Jagdgeschwader to Luftwaffe Headquarters and for the eyes of the Luftwaffe Commanders only. They are not based on either Allied or Soviet claims of aircraft destroyed. “Luftwaffe” is one of the best analysis of why the Germans lost the war in the air which I have come across. I have had to take the Charts and tables which he has provided, which means in some cases the figures I would be interested in were not available. However enough is there to shed light on the realities of who and where losses were inflicted.

>>>>>

Total German Operational Strength May 1940 (Operational strength is the aircraft actually ready to fly, not including aircraft on the books but in repair or depots)

Fighters: 1369

Others: 4029

Total: 5398


Total German Aircraft losses due to enemy action May-September 1940 (Invasion of France and Battle of Britain)

Fighters: 871

Others: 1442

Total: 2313


Total German Fighter Pilot casualties. (Casualties include Deaths, Serious Woundings, and Captures. Fighter Pilot casualties are to be differentiated from Aircraft losses which can be replaced)

May-June 1940 (Battle of France)

169

July-September 1940 (Battle of Britain)

521

You will notice the big increase in German Pilot Casualties during the Battle of Britain. This was due to the fact the Jagdwaffe were flying over hostile territory at extreme range.


Total German Aircraft losses due to enemy action October-December 1940 (Night Blitz of Britain)

Fighters: 40

Bombers: 140


--------------------------------------


Total German Operational Strength January 1941

Fighters: 1339

Others: 3008

Total: 4347


Average German Operational Strength versus Soviet Union June-November 1941

Fighters: 738 (55% of Total Jan. Operational strength)

Other: 1724

Total: 2462 (57% of Total Jan. Operational strength)


Total German Aircraft Losses due to enemy action January-December 1941 (not including November, figures N/A)

Fighters: 868

Other: 1981

Total: 2849


Percentage of Total German Aircraft lost Monthly, All Fronts January-December 1941

January: 2.6%

February: 3.6%

March: 4.9%

April: 7.2%

May: 7.5%

June: 11.6%

July: 16.1%

August: 9.8%

September: 8.8%

October: 7.7%

November: 6.5%

December: 7.1%


You can see from the above chart the German losses are quite small when their only active Front is the English Channel. Losses begin to rise in April with the Balkan Campaigns in Yugoslavia and Greece versus the British Expeditionary Forces there, as well as the commitment to North Africa with Rommel. The Germans had significant losses on Crete, especially in Transport and Bombers. With the invasion of the Soviet Union losses jump very significantly in the first few months. But after the Soviet airforce is to all intents destroyed, the losses begin to reduce again.


Percentage of Total German Fighter Aircraft lost Monthly, All Fronts January-December 1941

January: 2.1%

February: 3.6%

March: 4.7%

April: 6.4%

May: 6.8%

June: 14.2%

July: 22.9%

August: 13.4%

September: 12.6%

October: 6.0%

November: N/A

December: 10.2%


This Chart shows the German Fighter losses with the invasion of the Soviet Union are proportionately a little higher than overall losses.
---------------------------------

German Operational Strength January 1942

Fighters: 1324

Other: 3809

Total: 5133


I do not have percentages of the Aircraft deployment by Front. However in November of 1941, Luftflotte 2, comprising approx. 600 aircraft was transferred to the Mediterranean to assist in the suppression of Malta.


German Monthly Total Aircraft Losses All Fronts January to May 1942.

January: 428

February: 415

March: 564

April: 525

May: 772


This Chart shows the heaviest losses begin March with the failed Counter-Offensive by the Soviets at Kharkov.


Total German Aircraft Losses January to May 1942

All Aircraft: 2704


Total German Monthly Aircraft Losses June to December 1942 by Front. All Aircraft

Month----Eastern Front----All other Fronts

June--------350------------------299

July--------438------------------386

August------436------------------371

September---332------------------206

October-----200------------------324

November----224------------------595

December----408------------------366


This is my first Chart which shows the actual breakdown of losses by Front. You can see the losses on the Eastern Front are higher during the Summer ’42 offensive, but losses in the West are higher in October and November during the fighting at El Alamein and during the invasion of North Africa, “Torch”. Eastern Front losses then move ahead again during December when the foolishly ordered airlift to Stalingrad was at its height. There were significant Transport and Bomber losses at that time.


Total German Aircraft Losses June to December 1942 by Front

Eastern Front

All Aircraft: 2388

Other Fronts

All Aircraft: 2547

You can see from this, that the overall aircraft losses during the second half of ’42 begin to shift to the West.

----------------------------------------------------------


German Operational Aircraft Strength February 1943

Fighters: 1360

Others: 4014

Total: 5374


Distribution of Authorized German Fighter Strength January 1943 (note this is Authorized strength or Paper strength, not Operational strength)

Eastern Front: 445

Mediterranean: 280

NorthWest Europe: 1045


From this you can see 74% of German Fighter strength is concentrated against the Western Allies.


German Monthly Aircraft Losses in 1943 by Front. First number is total Aircraft losses/Second number is Fighter losses

Month----Eastern----Mediterranean----Northwest Europe

January--482--85-----282--124---------176--87

February-318--63-----206--89----------182--77

March----314--100----308--140---------256--140

April----238--67-----572--247---------256--143

May------331--110----333--97----------331--183

June-----249--85-----235--131---------313--157

July-----558--201----711--246---------526--335

August---472--150----321--133---------625--248

September-338--99-----503--167--------522--276

October---279--94-----285--92---------530--281

November--194--45-----180--54---------529--281

December---------Not Available


In January the German losses are slightly higher on the Eastern Front than both the Mediterranean and Northwest Europe combined. This reflects the continued attempted airlift to Stalingrad. But after that, losses versus the Western Allies become much more significant. Losses are very high during the close of the Tunisian Campaign, especially during the abortive attempted Air Supply phase. Even during the Kursk Offensive and subsequent Soviet Counter-Offensive, the losses are less than those suffered during the Sicily invasion. Meanwhile as the 8th Air Force Bombing Offensive begins in July of ’43, the German losses in Northwest Europe begin to climb till they are largest portion of all losses. Notice especially the higher proportion of Fighters lost in Northwest Europe.


Total Aircraft Losses in 1943 by Front (excluding December)

Eastern Front

Fighters: 1099

Total: 3773

Mediterranean Front

Fighters: 1520

Total: 3936

Northwest Europe Front

Fighters: 2208

Total: 4246


Total German Aircraft losses inflicted in 1943, Western Allies vs Soviet Union

Western Allies: 8182

Soviet Union: 3773


German Monthly Fighter Pilot Casualties January to December 1943

January: 137

February: 115

March: 155

April: 206

May: 266

June: 246

July: 330

August: 333

September: 343

October: 339

November: 245

December: 252


Of these casualties, the majority have been inflicted by the Western Allies.


Total German Operational Strength January 1944

Fighters: 1561

Others: 5180

Total: 6741


Distribution of Authorized German Fighter Strength January 1944

Eastern Front: 425

Mediterranean: 365

Northwest Europe: 1650


You can see from this 82% of German Fighter Strength is concentrated against the Western Allies at the start of 1944.


Unfortunately Murray’s book does not include figures which show losses by Front during 1944. However eduacated guesses can be made.


Total Monthly German Aircraft Losses January-May 1944. First number is total Aircraft losses/Second number is Fighter losses.


January: 991----473

February: N/A

March: 1770----985

April: N/A

May: 1882----831


You can see the monthly losses are much higher than in earlier years.


Monthly Percentage of Total German Aircraft Strength Lost January-June 1944


January: 14.7

February: 20.5

March: 25.6

April: 28.2

May: 27.8

June: 22.7


Monthly Percentage of Total German Fighter Strength Lost January-June 1944


January: 30.3

February: 33.8

March: 56.4

April: 43

May: 50.4

June: 48.3


Since 82% of the German Fighter strength is concentrated against the Western Allies, the overwhelming majority of the fighter casualties are likely inflicted by British or U.S. Pilots.


German Fighter Pilot Casualties January to May 1944

January: 292

February: 434

March: 511

April: 447

May: 578


Compare these Pilot losses with the previous tables showing Pilot losses during 1940 and 1943. You can see the attrition has become enormous.


Distribution of Authorized German Fighter Strength July 1944

Eastern Front: 475

Balkans (Mediterranean): 65

Northwest Europe: 835


Compare this table with the Authorized German Fighter Strength in January 1944. You can see the Eastern Front totals are much the same. But the strength facing the Western Allies has shrunk to 45% of what it was in January. This reflects the tremendous losses in the Battle for Germany.


Jagdgeschwader 26 Pilot Casualties by Year. (JG26 were based in France and Germany versus the Western Allies. Sometimes called the Abbeville Boys)

1939: 2
1940: 51
1941: 64
1942: 69
1943: 149
1944: 249
1945: 110

You can see from this table that during the years when JG26 was only facing short range Spitfires and ineffective British medium bombers, it could pick its time to fight or not to fight, and so casualties were very low. But with the advent of the B-17 daylight offensive, and the nessesity to intercept these destructive and accurate formations, casualties skyrocket.

[This message has been edited by Diogenes (edited 06-04-2002).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/04/02 09:03 AM

Diogenes, thanks for that its most comprehensive.

The only comment I'd make is that the high attrition rates in '43-'44, and particularly post D Day, when allied a/c were based in France etc were not always associated with long range American escort fighters. Don't forget the likely effects of Mk XIVs and Tempests etc.
Posted by: Dietger

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/04/02 09:16 AM

Thanks Diogenes.

Very interesting, most ppl probably didnt know this facts and numbers.

Dietger
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/04/02 10:28 AM

Great job Diogenes.

I always appreciate it when someone takes the time and effort to research the facts.
Posted by: kaa

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/04/02 10:48 AM

about the losses of the Schlageter Geschwader...a JG could barely have in the same time more than one hundred of fighter pilots...it means than for instance in 1944 , the JG 26 lost 200 % of its theoric flying personnel...and 100% in the 4 or 5 months of 1945...it is a tremendous slaughter...but it was so NECESSARY to shoot them down !!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/04/02 12:52 PM

Nice work Diogenes !

Did some number catching myself yesterday about the Focke-Wulfs.

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/Forum35/HTML/011991.html

Fighters are not fighters. The Luftflotte
Reich had a large nightfighter force.

Operational planes for the Luftflotte Reich,
31st May 1944:

Fighter, 1-engine____________444
Fighter, 2-engine_____________71
Nightfighters________________421
Fighterbombers_______________25

Same date, Luftflotten 1,4,5,6 + LW Kdo
South East (Balkan):

Fighter, 1-engine____________407
Fighter, 2-engine_____________69
Nightfighters_________________97
Fighterbombers______________485
Night-Fighterbombers_________264

Now the picture seems different and more
correct. At last to me.

Dora-9

[This message has been edited by Dora-9 (edited 06-04-2002).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/04/02 01:37 PM

Also remember that MANY of those aircraft were destroyed on the ground, especially by P-47s.


Quite a shame the Allies were too cowardly in their P-47s to engage the thousands of A/C they destroyed on the ground, in the air. Let the record show they were AFRAID of deadly 109s and 190s!


Hahaha. Call 'em as I see 'em!



------------------
"I DARE you to take your fricken' Yak or La5FN past 7,000m!"

Bf-109.. to fly where the Eagles Dare.

-Obltn Kretsler
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/04/02 03:56 PM

Seems that you have overlooked one important factor.This war was not in any way a game to be played like a damn football game.This war destroyed people and whole countries.
The Allies were in no mood to play games.The free world was in no mood at all.
Enemy armies,and airforces were destroyed as methodically as possible, in late 44 and 45,in the air,on the ground,anywhere they were found.No allied pilot was in the mood to allow the enemy into the air to prove who was the best.That idea was sheer stupidity.
This wasnt Warbirds online.Give us a break
Posted by: Grim_Death

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/04/02 04:17 PM

I second that Christopher.
To call anyone that fought in ANY war a coward is just plain stupid. I want to say more, but the post made me feel so sick, I can't formulate to words.


------------------
Grim_Death out.
AKA 336th_Uthor(HyperLobby)
I'm a dot.
http://www.devil-dawgs.com/
Posted by: Stonewall Jackson

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/04/02 05:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by I/JG51^Kretsler:
Also remember that MANY of those aircraft were destroyed on the ground, especially by P-47s.

Quite a shame the Allies were too cowardly in their P-47s to engage the thousands of A/C they destroyed on the ground, in the air. Let the record show they were AFRAID of deadly 109s and 190s!

Hahaha. Call 'em as I see 'em!



Moron, you'd crap your pants to even get in one of these planes.
Posted by: DBond

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/04/02 05:21 PM

Quite a shame the Allies were too cowardly in their P-47s to engage the thousands of A/C they destroyed on the ground, in the air. Let the record show they were AFRAID of deadly 109s and 190s!

LOL. That same attitude cost "Wutz" Galland and hundreds of others their lives in the skies over Europe.

Read Donald Caldwell's JG26 books, especially the 2nd volume and you'll start singing a different a tune, I would think.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/04/02 06:09 PM

Really! Kretsler either you have a poor taste of words or are just too ignorant of the cost of victory. As for me I'd rather destroy a plane on the ground than fight it in the air. Your opinions here and on HL really surprise me...some things are best kept secret. Trully quite unbelievable...

------------------
Graf11

"We few, we happy few, we Band of Brothers!"

[This message has been edited by Nowotny11 (edited 06-04-2002).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/04/02 07:16 PM

S!

So Kretsler, I guess the fact that the Luftwaffe destroyed an estimated 10,000 Soviet aircraft on the ground in a surprise attack on June 22nd makes all the 109 pilots cowards too?

Your lack of understanding of warfare is clear, as is your complete failure to comprehend the courage of any flyer.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/04/02 07:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by I/JG51^Kretsler:
Also remember that MANY of those aircraft were destroyed on the ground, especially by P-47s.


Quite a shame the Allies were too cowardly in their P-47s to engage the thousands of A/C they destroyed on the ground, in the air. Let the record show they were AFRAID of deadly 109s and 190s!


Hahaha. Call 'em as I see 'em!



Some post are so assnine that they aren't even worth responding to!

Crap I jsut did! Well then I might as well finish it then.

You really need to read your history books and stop playing Nintendo so much. The 8th Air Force was commanded to destroy the enemy where ever tehy found them. The Allied pilots destroyed them in the air and yes a large amount on the ground as well.

Ever wonder why so many were destroyed on the ground? Guess not well here you go...

The German Air Force was in a state commonly refered to as FUBAR. They had no supplies, no fuel, no spare parts, and most iportantly no trained pilots combat ready pilots.

Most of those planes on the ground would never have been able to take off any way. Those that did take off were overwelmed with superiour numbers and qucikly died. many a brave German pilot decided to sit in his bunker and wait for patton to liberate them than die for a lost cause.

A real shame that you would call your grandfathers and the grandfathers of your friends, neigbors, and fellow allied brethern cowards. Of course that the reason thousands have died to give you the right to do that.

Shame on you...........
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/04/02 08:52 PM

Back on subject,just because I think enough comments have been made about the earlier illogical statement

Can someone post or refer to the production of German aircraft numbers,and their locations and any type of assembly regions or network of small factories?

I've looked throught the net,and in books but have not found any referance as of yet, to the specific locations especially while creating the late war fighters as they were assembled (FW190's for example) in many annex locations.

In relation to that a observation:
I wish I had my Air and Space magazine handy , one fighter aircraft restorer refered to American engines being designed(by his interpretation) to be repaired in the feild ,British aircraft were made to be handled by all types of specialist's(Socialism style system,something I assume what prevelant for the British workers during that time?) and German engine's were designed to be shipped back to the rear for men in white lab coats to work on.

This is of course his perspective,by working on them with his hands,he noted the German designs were very exact and tolerant levels were small,and highly engineered,and appeared modern by todays standards.

I wonder if production was rushed for aircraft going to the East,and maintainance was done more in the feild or engines shipped to a closer location like maybe Czechoslavakia for repair,making losses higher then normal,when they went back into the feild (less then perfect workmenship from far from ideal conditions and ideal factories and supply systems)..I guess that would be a unknown,that also could have attributed to higher losses at least in the area of engine/aircraft failure,not to make a excuse or belittle the Russian efforts in any way.

But a possible factor too,some things can add up along with a tough environment.
Posted by: WWSensei

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/04/02 10:31 PM

Too cowardly? Spoken like a true neophyte with absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Unlike you son, I HAVE been in the cockpit of a fighter. 600+ hours of it logged as combat.

I didn't go into a fight with the intent to fight "fair". "Fair" fights are for little boys playing tiddly-winks in the school yard. I went into battle to win. You are damn right I would have shot the sobs on the ground. In the air you are trained to kill the other guy...not fight fair.

Too many video games and Hollywood movies can ruin a perspective. Air combat is about assasination and cold blooded murder of your opponent. No reset button, no replay button.

Grow up some, actually put your ass on the line for something where your failure means your life and then you MIGHT have some clue as to just how enormously stupid you sound making statements like that.

You haven't earned the right to judge another man's bravery...
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/04/02 10:38 PM

Excellent post!

So it looks like the VVS actually downed in the area of 14 to 15 thousand the entire war, not 44 thousand. While over Northern Europe the Americans and Brits downed about 8000 just during the first 5 months before D-Day, mostly with that crappy, over-rated
P-thingamajiggy

Sorry, just couldn't resist
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/05/02 01:16 AM

Dang, dudes, take a chill pill.


If you disagree with my post or don't like it, forget it. No reason to make a scene.




------------------
"I DARE you to take your fricken' Yak or La5FN past 7,000m!"

Bf-109.. to fly where the Eagles Dare.

-Obltn Kretsler
Posted by: sinner6

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/05/02 01:50 AM

Kretsler-

I understand you are 17 years old and will soon be joining the military.

As a veteran of the Armed Forces, I can tell you that your perspective will soon change radically. You may find yourself getting a little peeved when someone makes a uninformed/disrespectful post in public.

Remember you are talking about other peoples parents and grandparents here.

From what I've seen you're a smart kid.
Engage brain and then mouth- in that order.

PS My Grandpa was not a coward.

Posted by: MailPin

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/05/02 07:12 AM

First of all, these are not stalinist propaganda - datum I provided are of German origin.
There was a quest PC game about dinosaurus, where one of the heroes said: "Think, and you will find". Quite applicable.
I simply didn't respond to numbers in this thread, as they made me LOL (about number of German planes downed on East Front). So here's the math:
106000 - 15000(East) - even say quite exagerrated 40000 (on all fronts except Russian) =
FIFTY ONE THOUSAND airplanes at German's disposal by the end of the war. Anyone saw that? ;-)

To remove pinky glasses, just look how many German fighters was shot down on June 22th 1941 - the day of complete surprize for VVS. And then realize that for whole entire BoB campain Germans lost more only once.
Please do not think that average German losses on Eastern front became substantially (30 times) less per day than on June 22th.

Now numbers someone requested in this thread:
Total AC production rate:

USSR US UK Germany Japan Italy
1939 10382 2141 7940 8295 4467 1692
1940 10565 6086 15049 10247 4768 3257
1941 15735 19433 20094 12414 5088 3503
1942 25436 47836 23672 15401 8861 2818
1943 34900 85898 26263 24807 16693 1930
1944 40241 96318 26461 40593 28180 -----
1945 20104 46001 12070 7539 11066
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total 157363 303713 131549 119296 79123 13200


Now Germany AC production data.


Make Model Military Military Primary use
production production
years under German
control

Arado
Ar 65 1935-? ? fighter
Ar 66 1933-43 10,000 primary trainer
Ar 68 1935-37 (480) fighter
Ar 76 1936 ? advanced trainer
Ar 95 1937-39 24 recce
* Ar 96 & Ar 396 1939-44 11,456 advanced trainer
* Ar 196 1939-44 401 recce
* Ar 234 1944-45 210 recce bomber
* Ar 232 1942-? 22 transport
* Ar 240 & Ar 440 1942-43 13 fighter

Bachem
* Ba 349 1945 36 interceptor

Blohm & Voss
* BV 138 1940-43 273 recce
* BV 141 1939-? 13 tactical recce
* BV 222 1940-? 13 transport

Buecker Bue 131 1934- several thousand primary trainer
Bue 133 1936- several hundred aerobatic trainer
* Bue 181 1940-45 6,608 trainer

DFS
* 230 1939-41 1,022 assault glider

Dornier
Do 11 1933-34 77 heavy bomber
Do 18 1938-39 ca.100 recce
Do 17 1936-39 ca.1000 medium bomber
* Do 17Z 1939-40 535 "
* Do 215 1940-41 101 "
Do 15 1933-35 30 recce
Do 22 1938-39 26 "
Do 23 1935-36 210 heavy bomber
* Do 24 1937-44 228 recce
* Do 217 1939-43 (1,700) bomber
* Do 335 1944-45 90 fighter

Fieseler
* Fi 167 1939 12 torpedo
* Fi 103 1944-45 175 manned missile
* Fi 156 1937-45 2,549 in WWII STOL multi-role
ca.2,700 total

Flettner * Fl 282 1942-? 20+ observation helicopter

Focke Achgelis
* Fa 223 1942-? ca.12 transport helicopter

Focke-Wulf FW 56 1936-40 ca.1,000 advanced trainer
* FW 58 1937-42 ca.4,500 transport
* FW 189 1940-44 856 tactical recce
* FW 190 1940-45 20,051 fighter / fighter bomber
* Ta 152 1944-45 67 fighter
* FW 200 1940-44 276 recce bomber

Gotha
Go 145 1935-43 9,965 primary trainer
* Go 242 & Go 244 1941-43 1,528 glider / transport

Heinkel
He 45 ?-1936 512 recce bomber
He 46 ?-1936 481 recce
He 50 pre-WWII 60 recce
He 51 1934-? 200+ fighter
He 59 1932-36 200+ multi-role
He 60 1934-? 200+ recce
He 70 1934-38 ca.280 recce bomber
He 72 1933-36 several thousand primary trainer
* He 100 1939 15 fighter
* He 111 1936-44 6,806+ medium bomber
He 112 1937-39 54 fighter
He 114 1936-? ? recce
* He 115 1937-44 400+ multi-role
* He 177 1941-44 1,126 heavy bomber
* He 219 1943-45 268 + 20 night fighter
* He 162 1945 300 interceptor

Henschel
Hs 123 1936-38 1,000+ close support
Hs 126 1937-41 802 army co-operation
* Hs 129 1941-? 841 (Hs 129B) ground attack

Junkers
* Ju 52/3m 1932-45 5,000+ transport (including civilian)
* Ju 86 1938-40 810-1,000 bomber
* Ju 87 1936-44 5,700+ dive bomber/ground attack
* Ju 88 A & S 1939-44 10,774 bomber C,R & G 1940-45 4,200+
day / night fighter W 34 ?-1934 1,800 transport (including
civilian)
* Ju 188 1942-45 1,100 bomber
* Ju 288 1942-43 22 medium bomber
* Ju 290 1942-44 ca.50 transport / recce bomber
* Ju352 1943-44 45 transport

Messerschmitt
* BF 108 1934-44 885 liaison
* BF 109 1937-45 (33,000 WWII) fighter / fighter bomber 37,000 1937-56
* BF 110 1939-45 6,050 day / night fighter
* Me 163 1944-45 370 interceptor
* Me 210 & Me 410 1941-44 1,474 tactical multi-role
* Me 262 1944-45 1,433 fighter / fighter bomber
* Me 321 & Me 323 1941-44 385 heavy glider / transport

Siebel
* Si 204 1941-45 1,175+ multi-role

Regards,
-MailPin

Quote:
Originally posted by Pen:
Excellent post!

So it looks like the VVS actually downed in the area of 14 to 15 thousand the entire war, not 44 thousand. While over Northern Europe the Americans and Brits downed about 8000 just during the first 5 months before D-Day, mostly with that crappy, over-rated
P-thingamajiggy

Sorry, just couldn't resist
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/05/02 07:39 AM

Just wondering, why results of Allied side's "parents and grandparents" being honoured here while Russian "parents and grandparents"'s results now being named no less than "just Stalinist propaganda"..

------------------
Good hunting!

Dimmy
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/05/02 09:27 AM

Actually not more than 20,000 german a/c were shot down in Eastern front during WWII.

Before 1943 germans had total air superiority, after that it was difficult to find them to shot down, because intensive bombing of Germany took a lot of german fighters. I 've read memoirs of sturmovik pilots, who had more than 100 sorties after 1943 and never saw enemy fighters, all combat losses of their ShAP that time were caused by AAA!

The problem was in very ineffective way of VVS using, outdated tactics and lack of radio equipment till 1943.

It is nothing against our grandfathers, just reality.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/05/02 09:45 AM

Strik,dont be such a snob!You assume that Nintendo players are ignorant of history.I have been known to "occasionally" have a dabble on my sons Nintendo gamecube,purely for relaxation after a gruelling (and intellectually superior?) il-2 session,that doesnt make me a bad person,or does it?So please dont make the big N culpable for the ramblings of every moron out there.

[This message has been edited by oor wullie (edited 06-05-2002).]

[This message has been edited by oor wullie (edited 06-05-2002).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/05/02 03:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dimmy:
Just wondering, why results of Allied side's "parents and grandparents" being honoured here while Russian "parents and grandparents"'s results now being named no less than "just Stalinist propaganda"..




Last time I noticed Dimmy, the Russians were on our side during WWII and as such were considered Allies.

------------------
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/05/02 04:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oor wullie:
Strik,dont be such a snob!You assume that Nintendo players are ignorant of history.I have been known to "occasionally" have a dabble on my sons Nintendo gamecube,purely for relaxation after a gruelling (and intellectually superior?) il-2 session,that doesnt make me a bad person,or does it?So please dont make the big N culpable for the ramblings of every moron out there.

[This message has been edited by oor wullie (edited 06-05-2002).]

[This message has been edited by oor wullie (edited 06-05-2002).]


You see here though you mad the difference. You can play a game and know a game from the real world. Some children think the real world is what they an control with their joystick and gamepad and when reality bites them in the ass who do they have to blame?

It's always the excuse my parents sucked. Well my parents and my grandparents, and my great granparents didn't suck and they weren't cowards and I still stand by my statement.



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Posted by: MailPin

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/05/02 08:13 PM

Hi Niklaus,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nikolaus:
>[B]Actually not more than 20,000 german a/c >were shot down in Eastern front during WWII.
May I ask for sources of these 20000 claims?

As per information in my possession,
Germans data states 49000 combat losses on EF
Russian claims were 57000
That makes Russian overclaim near 8000 AC.

> Before 1943 germans had total air >superiority, after that it was difficult to >find them to shot down, because intensive >bombing of Germany took a lot of german >fighters.

I believe (according to my data) that TOTAL air superiority was only in Summer-Autumn 1941, as total superiority means
a) inability to takeoff - germans simply and effectively blocked Russian airdromes.
b) problems with AC delivery (not production) rate, which decreases number of AC that country is capable to place on the front-line
c) Total suppression of offensive aviation. Please do not forget that fighter is a defensive weapon in war, and that's bombers which DO the work, while fighters are only supplementary (but neccessary) addon. In this case, Russian bomber aviation was severely mauled, and conducting offensive raids was almost impossible, or created tremendous loss rate in offensive (bomber) aviation on russian side. This forced VVS to use fighters (regarding their performance vs german fighter counterparts) as short-range tactical bombers.

All this, of course, applicable to the West Front "Big Week" and "Steam rolling stock Hunting".
Please notice that I do not qualify numerical superiority to be a key for TOTAL air superiority.

Difficulties with finding german ac? Umm... read K.K. Sukhov's book or something similar - you'll notice that on the contrary russian pilots always were saying that they were outnumbered in combats until the end of 44. Besides, Ju87 strikes were quite effective until mid-43, not saying about Ju-88.

According to memories of russian pilots who participate in WWII, it wasn't hard to find germans even in April 45, and they were fighting to the end in sufficient numbers. It's just that from 1944 these was a tactics change on the Russian front - germans started to strafe advancing hordes of tanks and infantry strongholds, while russians paid more attention to free hunt and air combat with anything what was flying.


> I 've read memoirs of sturmovik pilots, >who had more than 100 sorties after 1943 >and never saw enemy fighters, all combat >losses of their ShAP that time were caused >by AAA!
That's how it should be, as on EF even rifles were used as AAA.
Grandfather of a good friend of mine was IL-2 sturmo pilot (single-seated in 41, then IL-2M3). According to his memories, unprotected IL-2 is almost sure victory for FW-190 (unless IL-2 pilot was very good in turning combat, but these accounts were very rare, and normal sturmo pilot never attempted evasive or attacking maneuvres in horizontal).

>The problem was in very ineffective way of >VVS using, outdated tactics and lack of >radio equipment till 1943.
Agree, but it's only part of the picture. To elaborate on that, here's my addition.
Main problems were, as I guess:
1. Psychological shock (I refuse to name that panic, but according to many russian books, it was something quite close) due all 1941 (that, I believe is a reason which made many russian pilots to lose their combats before even starting them).
2. Low experience of new pilots - 25 hours was considered "expert" training in Russian VVS during 1942.
3. Mostly inferior equipment, and, inferior AC maintenance on russian side all the way to the end of 1942.
4. Misunderstanding of the roles and duties of fighter aviation in modern warfare.

These problems were "fixed" hard way - by trial and error. BTW I do not think, it was possible to fix it any other way in such society.

Regards,
-MailPin
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/06/02 12:14 AM

S!

Mailpin please provide the source for your claim that the Germans admitted a loss on the Eastern Front of 49,000 aircraft in combat.

Nothing I have seen would agree with those numbers.

Please do not include aircraft written off active records as a result of normal maintenance procedures. Only include losses in air to air or air to ground combat.

My data in my first post of this thread is as mentioned, taken from the Actual German Gruppe Records as reported by their Commanding Officers to Luftwaffe Headquarters. The Author lists his sources clearly in the appendices to the tables.

Perhaps you could do the same.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/06/02 05:18 AM

Mailpin

in 1939-1945 Germany produced 93000 planes
If 49000 were destroyed on Eastern Front ( we mean combat losses, am I right?), how many were lost in accidents? And how many were lost on the West?
Officialy USSR losses are more than 80,000 ac, 43,000 in combat. It means that combat/non-combat loss ratio is closing to 1 in VVS. What about LW?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/06/02 05:29 AM

S! MailPin

Your info about amount of German a/c lost at EF is very close to mine, which I've typed here during last summer's Great Flame War (I've searched the SimHQ for this topic but looks as it has been deleted at all). It was Boandlgramer, who asked me about such info so I made a special topic for him with such info and digits for German loss at Russian front per months of war. But as people was interested only in flame wars that time and claiming each other "propagandists", "stalinist" and so - I don't think what I'll step in this area again.

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Good hunting!

Dimmy
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/06/02 05:35 AM

Dimmy

А классно было бы получить такие данные, похоже это какие-то тайные знания ( я имею ввиду реальные потери люфтваффе на восточном фронте)8)
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/06/02 06:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nikolaus:
Dimmy

А классно было бы получить такие данные, похоже это какие-то тайные знания ( я имею ввиду реальные потери люфтваффе на восточном фронте)8)



Данные о РЕАЛЬНЫХ потерях, естественно, получить не удастся. Все исторические работы на эту тему предполагают анализ разных данных, из разных источников. Я упоминал в том году немецкий труд (2х или 3х томник), в котором приводились таблицы потерь ЛФ на нашем фронте с июня 41-го по январь 45-го, так как более поздние документы погибли или уже не велись в ЛФ. Ценность этого труда была в том, что в нем приводились таблицы численности самолетов в ЛФ на начало месяца и конец месяца, с численностью потерянных, списанных и полученных машин. Более точные данные об этом труде можешь поискать на ВИФе и АИФе, к сожалению мой топик со всеми ссылками на документы был удален с сайта, а еще раз столько печатать уже не хочется - опять никому это не нужно будет, все верят только в то, что у них есть.

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Good hunting!

Dimmy
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/06/02 06:55 AM

Ну а название труда ты можешь дать? Выходные так сказать данные.
Posted by: OzZiggy

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/06/02 08:25 AM

i couldnt have said it any better than sensei did

"you havent earned the right to judge another mans bravery"

well said i doubt few of us have. My dad was in vietnam and he said everyman cracked or went blank at some point. Call it shock call it fear ..call it what you want. Some for seconds others for minutes some for years. the fact is that those guys are still there next to you getting shot at! Its hard after this to call any man a coward. These were the words i remebered most vividly when i joined the army .

If m,y dad had a way to "kill his eneamies while they slept" he would have and i would have been happier if he had.

Cheers Oz
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/06/02 09:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nikolaus:
Ну а название труда ты можешь дать? Выходные так сказать данные.


Поищи вот эту: Olaf Groehler "Geschichte des Luftkriegs"

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Good hunting!

Dimmy
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/06/02 10:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes:
Please do not include aircraft written off active records as a result of normal maintenance procedures. Only include losses in air to air or air to ground combat.


Please, don't forget what units hided combat loss in "non-combat loss" and such your point of view is incorrect. As an example I can point you to the battle at Sandomirian field, where Germans lost 12 KingTigers but only 6 of them has been written off as combat loss, while rest of them were written off during few upcoming days as "in need of repair".

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Good hunting!

Dimmy
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/06/02 10:46 AM

Dimmy,

I've got this source (Olaf Groehler "Geschichte des Luftkriegs"1981)
from Mailpin already.
The only problem I see is that this East German historian was the main source for his Soviet colleagues, who are not trustworthy at all.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/06/02 12:05 PM

Не оспаривая твое безусловное право "кому верить, а кому нет", могу лишь заметить, что многие документы были доступны только советским и немецким историкам из ГДР, как, например, архивы Generalquartiermeister. Многие западные историки не имели к ним доступа, поэтому писали на основе только имеющихся у них данных.

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Good hunting!

Dimmy
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/06/02 12:24 PM

НАсколько я понимаю, эти архивы сейчас уже доступны ( последние 12 лет ) для западных коллег. Но не вижу обновления цифр. Думаешь причине желания фальсифицировать историю ? Опять же в Германии полно энтузиастов, составляющих поименные списки потерь гешвадеров. Уж они бы с удовольствием ими воспользовались.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/06/02 12:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nikolaus:
НАсколько я понимаю, эти архивы сейчас уже доступны


Ошибаешься. Почитай на форумах, легко ли работать с нашими архивами. Да и насколько я знаю, только авторы "Black Cross - Red Star" получили возможность ознакомиться с ЧАСТЬЮ архивов.

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Good hunting!

Dimmy
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/06/02 12:52 PM

Судя по BC/RS немецкие потери шокирующе малы на период времени, описываемый в двух имеющихся у меня томах.
Кстати, не знаешь, когда ожидаются следующие тома?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/06/02 01:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nikolaus:
Судя по BC/RS немецкие потери шокирующе малы на период времени, описываемый в двух имеющихся у меня томах.
Кстати, не знаешь, когда ожидаются следующие тома?


Видишь ли, BC/RS является последней современной книгой, которая представляет собой интерес, как современный взгляд на те события и новый анализ, но эта книга не "последняя инстанция", как многие в последнее время стали считать, в ней тоже есть недочеты. IIRC, Ковалев делал обзор BC/RS.

Следующий том вроде этой осенью должен был появиться.

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Good hunting!

Dimmy
Posted by: kaa

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/07/02 11:36 AM

Nikolaus,if Germany build 93000 combat planes during the war and lost 50000 of them due to USSR armed forces...they lost the rest in the war against the western allies...at the end of the war the Luftwaffe was practically totally anihilated,and ther was only a few planes left..logical ?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/07/02 12:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaa:
..logical ?


Seems you didn't get the question. We argue about combat losses number and I doubt about 50000 german a/с lost in combat on the East.
My opinion is that only 20000 a/c were lost.

It would be interesting to find out how many planes were shot down on the West, and how many planes were lost by non-combat reasons.
Posted by: Dart

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/07/02 05:52 PM

Um, is my memory foggy or didn't Germany lose ALL OF THEIR FRIGGIN AIRCRAFT in 1945?

LOL, it might have been a PFC carrying a rifle that strolled up to it, but if we're getting technical, every single one of them was a combat loss.

100% Zero survivability. Not all of them were destroyed, certainly, but none of them as machines of the Third Reich.

The point of my saying this? Well, first, I love to deflate grogs by stating the obvious, particularly LW advocates. It's almost as if they're upset Germany lost the war.

Secondly, there's a big piece of combat readiness missing in this game: the people that were there.

I wouldn't dare try to solo a Cessna after 4-6 hours of instruction....yet Soviet pilots went to the front lines to fight experienced LW pilots during WWII with just that amount of training.

And kills will always be inflated when compared against production numbers.
Heck, this happens in dogfight servers, where we can all lean back in our comfy chairs and sip coffee.

Example: I was flying the other night and just pasted this FW190 with my MG's and a cannon round from my P-39. He smoked, stuff flew off of him, and he did the death spiral. I didn't follow him down (why give up altitude) and waited for the kill confirmation that never came.

Why not? Well, the guy recovered the stall and squeaked it to his runway, ultimately landing with a dead stick. I wish it was icons or that I'd paid attention to the messages because it was fantastic flying by the Hun bastage....and I watched from the ol' external view.

If that had been real life, I would have claimed the kill, the gun camera footage would have been compelling, and I would have put a little German cross under my cockpit.

Fifty years later somebody would look back with the luxury of seeing both sets of reports and notice that I claimed a kill that day, but the Germans reported none. Maybe a damaged plane, even a complete loss as far as the mechanics were concerned, but not a kill or enemy victory.


And then call me a liar (in so many words).

Likewise, if a pilot damaged the same plane (assuming it was repaired) to the extent that it appeared to be a kill (nosed up in a field, down but repairable) a second time, it gets further inflated.

This wasn't possible during the Battle of Britain, as you couldn't get a tow truck over to Essex to fetch back your 109 ( ), but was possible on the Eastern Front.

Which leads me to the clear troll comment about cowardly P-47 pilots:

LW pilots weren't cowardly when they shot down raw pilots mercilessly - they were doing what they needed to. I guess they were supposed to wait for the VVS pilots to get experienced enough to defend themselves?

Not even in WWI was there respect for a "fair fight." They weren't building snow forts, they were fighting to survive.

And the cheap shot: Isn't Barstow, CA where Johnny "Taliban" Walker is from?

Explains a lot about the comment, doesn't it?

[This message has been edited by BA_Dart (edited 06-07-2002).]

[This message has been edited by BA_Dart (edited 06-07-2002).]
Posted by: Purzel

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/07/02 07:47 PM

Wow!

Just one question: How long did it take you to make this post, Diogenes?

Thanks a lot, very informative!!!



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Purzel

Want to enable swastikas in ЬberDemons way?
Posted by: Slant 6

Re: Some Facts about German Aircraft Losses in WWII - 06/10/02 01:14 PM

That Kretser character (who made that idiotic comment about "Jug" drivers being cowards) is obviously a troll, and probably is just messing around with his parents' old Pentium 60. Ignore him.