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#2473602 - 03/19/08 02:46 PM Official IAF stats on AAMs in 73
ziker Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/03
Loc: Israel
Some official numbers on the operation of AAMs by the IAF during the Yom Kippur War.

On the eve of the Yom Kippur war the IAF operated slightly over 1,000 AAMs of 4 different types. The AIM-9D, AIM-9G, Shafrir 2 and AIM-7E*.

Shafrir 2 missiles were operated by 76 Shahaks and Neshers operated by four Squadrons:"The First Fighter Squadron", "The first Jet Squadron", "Defenders of the Arava" and "Hornet" Squadrons.

The IDF and IAF were surprised by the opening of hostilities on 6th October 1973, and did not fight according to the established training and doctrine. As a result, air superiority was not achieved and the beginning of the war and the Arab air-forces were not destroyed on the ground.

These conditions led to a relatively high number of air victories during the war, totaling at 227. About half of these victories were achieved by AAMs.

Statistical Distribution of AAM air victories during the Yom Kippur war:

Shafrir 2: Launched 176 – Kills 89 – Kill rate 50.5% - % of total kills 32.1%
AIM-9D/G : Launched 132 – Kills 52.5 – Kill rate 39.8% - % of total kills 18.9%
AIM-7E: Launched 12 – Kills 3 – Kill rate 25% - % of total kills 1.1%

The article claims these statistics show that the Shafir 2 was the most successful AAM operated by the IAF during the Yom Kippur war. I must add that since the bulk of A2A missions were flown by Shahaks and Neshers, this may have lead to more favorable conditions for the Shafir 2.

David Ivri attributed the Shafir 2s success not only to it's reliability but to strict training and indoctrination of pilots to strictly adhere to the launch envelope. Especially in the "First Jet Squadron" and "Defenders of the Arava" squadron that preferred the Shafir 2 despite it's higher weight and drag.

* on page 49 Weinberg mentions that the IAF received AIM-9Hs in 1971, strangely they are not mentioned in the Yom-Kippur statistics.

Source: an IAF history department official article on the Shafrir 2

"Shafrir 2 – Development and Operation of an Air-to-Air Missile", by Moshe Weinberg, published on www.iaf.org.il history section.

If you can read Hebrew you can download the entire article here :
_________________________
FIGHTER PILOTS MAKE MOVIES,
ATTACK PILOTS MAKE HISTORY.
-- Bumper Stickers, http://www.f-16.net
-----------------
Zivan 'Ziker' Krisher


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#2473808 - 03/19/08 06:08 PM Re: Official IAF stats on AAMs in 73 [Re: ziker]
MoonJumper Offline
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Registered: 08/04/03
Loc: Germany
Thanks for posting this ziker.
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#2474052 - 03/19/08 11:30 PM Re: Official IAF stats on AAMs in 73 [Re: MoonJumper]
speedbump Offline
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Registered: 11/23/05
Loc: Anchorage
In the game, the Shafrir missile seems to be more accurate.
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#2475841 - 03/21/08 06:25 PM Re: Official IAF stats on AAMs in 73 [Re: ziker]
Guderian Offline
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Registered: 11/22/01
Loc: People's Republic of Sweden
 Originally Posted By: ziker
The article claims these statistics show that the Shafir 2 was the most successful AAM operated by the IAF during the Yom Kippur war. I must add that since the bulk of A2A missions were flown by Shahaks and Neshers, this may have lead to more favorable conditions for the Shafir 2.

I think that's a very likely explanation. The Phantom was mostly used in the attack role and did not have the same freedom to dogfight.

As for the AIM-7, I'm pretty sure the Israelis did not take BVR shots as a rule (just as in Vietnam the risk of fratricide would have been very high) so the low Pk is not very surprising. Aircraft on attack missions also have a tendency to take low Pk shots to scare off enemies or break up their formations.

 Quote:
David Ivri attributed the Shafir 2s success not only to it's reliability but to strict training and indoctrination of pilots to strictly adhere to the launch envelope. Especially in the "First Jet Squadron" and "Defenders of the Arava" squadron that preferred the Shafir 2 despite it's higher weight and drag.

Again a reasonable explanation. Also, if the Mirage and Nesher crews concentrated on A2A in peactime they would of course be more proficient than the Phantom crews who had to practice A2G as well (cf F-15 vs F-16).
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#2476858 - 03/23/08 03:16 AM Re: Official IAF stats on AAMs in 73 [Re: Guderian]
PhantomIIF4 Offline
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Registered: 01/24/05
Loc: United States
Makes you wonder that with the success the IDF/AF had with the Phantom in the air-to-air role......how would they have done if their Phantom crews had focused solely on the air-to-air mission as opposed to being a more multi-role airplane?
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#2476937 - 03/23/08 07:42 AM Re: Official IAF stats on AAMs in 73 [Re: PhantomIIF4]
ziker Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/03
Loc: Israel
OK, but we need to remember that except for the defenders fo the arva squadron and maybe the first jet squadron the Mirages and Neshers didn't fly exclusively with the Shafrir they also used Sidewinders.

Sadly we don't have the stats on winder vs shafrir use on Mirage/Neshers alone.

We also need to remember that the Hornet squadron was very inexpirienced but still got very good results with the Shafrir 2.

I think the stats above show that the Shafrir 2 was definitly not an inferior weapon, but claiming it was superior to the sidewinder may be a bit overdoing it.
_________________________
FIGHTER PILOTS MAKE MOVIES,
ATTACK PILOTS MAKE HISTORY.
-- Bumper Stickers, http://www.f-16.net
-----------------
Zivan 'Ziker' Krisher

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#2476979 - 03/23/08 10:46 AM Re: Official IAF stats on AAMs in 73 [Re: PhantomIIF4]
Guderian Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/22/01
Loc: People's Republic of Sweden
 Originally Posted By: PhantomIIF4
Makes you wonder that with the success the IDF/AF had with the Phantom in the air-to-air role......how would they have done if their Phantom crews had focused solely on the air-to-air mission as opposed to being a more multi-role airplane?

They probably would have done a little better in A2A, but the question is purely hypothetical since the Phantom was by far the best strike aircraft available to the IAF. In other words it would be wasted in the pure A2A role.

The Phantom can carry twice as much as the Mirage, in addition to having much better navigation and targeting equipment. It was revolutionary for the IAF in terms of A2G capability.
_________________________
"I prefer to fly alone ... when alone, I perform those little coups of audacity which amuse me" - Ren้ Fonck

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#2477018 - 03/23/08 01:24 PM Re: Official IAF stats on AAMs in 73 [Re: Guderian]
MoonJumper Offline
Member

Registered: 08/04/03
Loc: Germany
From the Pilot interviews in ALoni's Mirage/Nesher aces book it looks to me that the Shafrir 2 was at least as good as the 9D and G, if not better. Pilots describe the Shafrir 2 as a missile which "goes all out" after the target, with hard steering input, while the 9D was known for a smooth flightpath.

Phantom A2A... that was more a secondary role for most of the time in the IDF, exceptions are the special patrols and air ambushes, since they were bought to establish a long range strike capability... reach out and hit hard.
They were used for QRA and CAP, though... no way to waste their superior radar.
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#2477307 - 03/23/08 10:33 PM Re: Official IAF stats on AAMs in 73 [Re: MoonJumper]
PhantomIIF4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Loc: United States
Guys, I know what the Phantom was used for in the IDF/AF, and I know the reasons they employed it the way they did.

I was just posting something to give us something to think about. I'm not saying the F-4 would have been better for the IDF/AF if they had used it strictly as an A2A platform because obviously its superior (to pretty much anything else out there at the time) long-range strike capability would have really been wasted.

My point was simply to make us all think of Phantom air-to-air results if they had been trained more exclusively on air-to-air missions.
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