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#46451 - 02/06/06 09:02 AM Just how effective is the beam manuever?
D-scythe Offline
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Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 943
Loc: Canada
If you say, beam a radar missile while it is in a "look-down" situation, so you're hiding in ground clutter and chaff, can that automatically guarantee your survival or can the missile still hit you?

Not really looking for a classified answer here, but more like a "yes, it can" or "no, you're safe." I know beaming has been taught since AIM-ACE (that exercise in the 70s with Red F-5s and blue F-15/14s), and newer radar missiles have been developed since then, but so far it seems that, from public information, if you beam any radar missile it should probably keep you safe.

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#46452 - 02/06/06 10:06 AM Re: Just how effective is the beam manuever?
FastCargo Offline
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Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1623
Well, as with anything else...it depends. ACM tactics and employment don't tend to be yes/no answers. It's more a question of probabilities. In a tactic such as beaming, the idea is you're lowering the probabilities that the missle will lock, track, and detonate in close enough prox to the target.

I'm not going to get into a detailed tech discussion here. There are a LOT of variables.

FastCargo
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#46453 - 02/06/06 12:17 PM Re: Just how effective is the beam manuever?
D-scythe Offline
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Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 943
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by FastCargo:
Well, as with anything else...it depends. ACM tactics and employment don't tend to be yes/no answers. It's more a question of probabilities. In a tactic such as beaming, the idea is you're lowering the probabilities that the missle will lock, track, and detonate in close enough prox to the target.

I'm not going to get into a detailed tech discussion here. There are a LOT of variables.

FastCargo
No, in terms of monopulse seeker operation, there are no variables. It's not dynamic in the sense of ACM. Basically, beaming works because the target disappears in the radar clutter filter - the main variable is closure speed.

There are no probabilities at all - either the missile loses the target because of the doppler filter, or it can continuously track it. There is no in between.

So really, from what I've researched, there is no real way to lock and track continuously a beaming target, as if you were to disable to filter then radar clutter, either from chaff or the ground, would become increasingly more effective. You're right in that there are a lot of technical things to worry about, but none of them are variables and the whole situation is not dynamic in any way from what I know.

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#46454 - 02/06/06 04:46 PM Re: Just how effective is the beam manuever?
FastCargo Offline
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Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1623
Quote:
Originally posted by D-scythe:
There are no probabilities at all - either the missile loses the target because of the doppler filter, or it can continuously track it. There is no in between.
Nope, not true. Certain missles do have the capability to reaquire a target that has been lost...if the target shows up within its narrow azimuth angle. Unfortunately, this has the side effect of maybe shooting down something you were not intending if it goes into 'Mad Dog' mode...

FastCargo
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#46455 - 02/06/06 05:07 PM Re: Just how effective is the beam manuever?
D-scythe Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 943
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by FastCargo:
Nope, not true. Certain missles do have the capability to reaquire a target that has been lost...if the target shows up within its narrow azimuth angle. Unfortunately, this has the side effect of maybe shooting down something you were not intending if it goes into 'Mad Dog' mode...

FastCargo
Then you just confirmed my point. A target needs to be RE-ACQUIRED (i.e. it will lose track of target), which would mean that so long as the pilot continues to beam the missile, the target will be hidden from it in either ground or chaff clutter.

My question was that can an advanced radar missile (like AMRAAM) continuously track a beaming target through clutter.

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#46456 - 02/09/06 03:50 AM Re: Just how effective is the beam manuever?
hansundfranz Offline
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Registered: 03/25/01
Posts: 707
Loc: Germany
AFAIK, the amraams radar is not a pulse doppler radar but a continiois wave radar and so doppler effect does not affect it al all.

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#46457 - 02/09/06 11:36 AM Re: Just how effective is the beam manuever?
WalterNowi Offline
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Registered: 03/08/04
Posts: 255
Loc: San Gabriel, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by hansundfranz:
AFAIK, the amraams radar is not a pulse doppler radar but a continiois wave radar and so doppler effect does not affect it al all.
Does this mean that I can try to duck under it and make it lose lock? Thanks.

Nowi
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#46458 - 02/10/06 06:29 AM Re: Just how effective is the beam manuever?
hansundfranz Offline
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Registered: 03/25/01
Posts: 707
Loc: Germany
What you can and should do depends on the sim you fly and is probably at best discussed in that sims forum.

Some stuff applies to all somewhat realistic sims (the principles of geopemtry and physics that define the dogfight environment) Missile behaviour and BVR is highly dependet on the sim

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#46459 - 02/10/06 04:37 PM Re: Just how effective is the beam manuever?
D-scythe Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 943
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by hansundfranz:
AFAIK, the amraams radar is not a pulse doppler radar but a continiois wave radar and so doppler effect does not affect it al all.
Nope, the AMRAAM has a monopulse radar seeker that uses doppler to pick up and lock its target.

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