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#2502534 - 04/26/08 05:12 PM Re: Ben Stein's Expelled [Re: TerribleTwo]
Jayhawk Offline
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Registered: 12/30/00
Loc: Munich, the deep south
Just as an aside, the "samurai in Japan" actually did hear the gospel (the missionary and co-founder of the Jesuits, Francisco Xavier, came to Japan in 1549; between 1612 and 1871 Christianity was outlawed under the pain of death), and a considerable number of them actually converted to Catholicism (and not only the samurai, but other members of Japanese society as well).
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#2502549 - 04/26/08 05:26 PM Re: Ben Stein's Expelled [Re: Jayhawk]
Legend Offline
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Registered: 05/09/00
Loc: Zutphen, NL / ShangHai, China
There are also many Chinese Christians (I've seen two churches here in ShangHai), and Xi'an, the old city in the west of China, has a huge Muslim community. Religion is not banned in China, it's just less important than the Party.
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#2502633 - 04/26/08 07:50 PM Re: Ben Stein's Expelled [Re: Legend]
Colt40Five Offline
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Registered: 03/06/05
Loc: Heart of Dixie
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#2502640 - 04/26/08 07:55 PM Re: Ben Stein's Expelled [Re: Arthonon]
Stormtrooper Offline
Lifer

Registered: 07/10/02
Loc: Washington state
 Originally Posted By: Arthonon
Biblical passages only have meaning if you believe they are accurate and/or divinely inspired.


I feel the same way with Internet videos.
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#2502645 - 04/26/08 08:01 PM Re: Ben Stein's Expelled [Re: Arthonon]
TerribleTwo Offline
Member

Registered: 09/05/01
 Originally Posted By: Arthonon
That's kind of the basis of my question. If God ultimately decides who lives and who dies, regardless of prayer, what purpose does prayer serve? And if prayer does serve a purpose, is God really deciding, or is he allowing humans to decide?

Also - and I don't mean this in any negative way, I'm just making sure I understand your point - are you saying that God decided that your uncle's life was less important than you and your father spending time together, and your uncle's death was a sacrifice to make that happen?


Good questions indeed, we've asked the same questions ourseleves, as well as countless others who share the same experiences.

I'm a believer that God allows life to happen, meaning, birth, death, tragedy, murder, etc... I think God steps in an alters the outcome when when it serves a greater purpose.

The best example is Jesus on the cross. God the Father certainly could have altered the course there or Jesus himself could have stopped the crucifixion at any point. Yet the consequences of his death were far greater than the physical and spiritual pain he experienced.

So in time of hardship, the example of Jesus dying on the cross and suffering for us is a comfort. It makes seeing that loved one pass on that much easier to deal with.


So to answer the question regarding my uncle's sudden death, I think God allows death to happen, but, if we ask for guidance in these difficult times, God can turn it into something good. But the key is that we have to be open to that spiritual communication, otherwise, we can become bitter and blame God for things we do not underdstand.

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#2502652 - 04/26/08 08:24 PM Re: Ben Stein's Expelled [Re: TerribleTwo]
Rilex Offline
Member

Registered: 02/20/02
Loc: Washington
 Quote:

I think God steps in an alters the outcome when when it serves a greater purpose.


So the question always is, why wasn't Hitler killed earlier? Or the Christian Crusaders killed before they could reek havok?

Seems that, if a deity exists, it doesn't get the right people quickly enough.

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#2502654 - 04/26/08 08:26 PM Re: Ben Stein's Expelled [Re: LukeFF]
Rilex Offline
Member

Registered: 02/20/02
Loc: Washington
 Originally Posted By: LukeFF
 Originally Posted By: Rilex
All this was written by humans for humans. It is no more or less accurate than Harry Potter.


I tend to think the Ten Commandments are a bit more accurate than any Harry Potter book. ;\)


None of those rules were "new" with the Ten Commandments.

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#2502684 - 04/26/08 09:38 PM Re: Ben Stein's Expelled [Re: Rilex]
NH2112 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/06
Loc: Windham ME
 Originally Posted By: Rilex


So the question always is, why wasn't Hitler killed earlier? Or the Christian Crusaders killed before they could reek havok?

Seems that, if a deity exists, it doesn't get the right people quickly enough.



I've always wondered why if Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac was enough to satisfy God, why wasn't Jesus' willingness to be crucified also enough? I'd think that anyone who let himself be "crowned" with thorns, beaten with rods, flogged near unto death, then carried his cross however far through Jerusalem more than demonstrated his willingness to die for everyone's sins.
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#2502698 - 04/26/08 10:09 PM Re: Ben Stein's Expelled [Re: NH2112]
TerribleTwo Offline
Member

Registered: 09/05/01
 Originally Posted By: NH2112


I've always wondered why if Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac was enough to satisfy God, why wasn't Jesus' willingness to be crucified also enough? I'd think that anyone who let himself be "crowned" with thorns, beaten with rods, flogged near unto death, then carried his cross however far through Jerusalem more than demonstrated his willingness to die for everyone's sins.



The purpose of Jesus' death was not meant to show how much he was willing to die. Imagine if a marine stood by while a grenade was thrown amidst his buddies. Instead of jumping on the grenade and saving his squad, the marine verbally conveyed his willingness to die for his buddies just seconds before the grenade blows his squad to pieces. Not quite the same effect eh? Recently, a marine jumped on a grenade, as has been done many times in the past, and saved his friends with his death.

Jesus' greatest agony was not on the cross, it was not physical agony, it was spiritual agony which culminated in the garden the night before his crucifixion. Jesus' greatest agony was taking on the sins of the world, the past, the present and the future. This is a great mystery, why it had to b that way I do not know, and neither did Paul the Apostle, nor any of his disciples.

Jesus died so we did not have to, spiritually speaking of course.


Edited by TerribleTwo (04/26/08 10:18 PM)

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#2502763 - 04/27/08 12:12 AM Re: Ben Stein's Expelled [Re: TerribleTwo]
NH2112 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/06
Loc: Windham ME
I know the catechisms, I was brought up Catholic.

Why does the Marine actually have to die? Wouldn't it be just as meaningful if he threw himself on the grenade but it turned out to be a dud? Heck, let's say that Jesus THOUGHT he was going to die on the cross but still went willingly, and just before he cried out "FATHER! FATHER! WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME?" a giant hand came down from the heavens and saved him.

I'm just saying that God isn't very consistent in the Bible.
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I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose free will

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