Quite a shame the Allies were too cowardly in their P-47s to engage the thousands of A/C they destroyed on the ground, in the air. Let the record show they were AFRAID of deadly 109s and 190s!

LOL. That same attitude cost "Wutz" Galland and hundreds of others their lives in the skies over Europe.

Read Donald Caldwell's JG26 books, especially the 2nd volume and you'll start singing a different a tune, I would think.

Really! Kretsler either you have a poor taste of words or are just too ignorant of the cost of victory. As for me I'd rather destroy a plane on the ground than fight it in the air. Your opinions here and on HL really surprise me...some things are best kept secret. Trully quite unbelievable...

------------------
Graf11

"We few, we happy few, we Band of Brothers!"

[This message has been edited by Nowotny11 (edited 06-04-2002).]

S!

So Kretsler, I guess the fact that the Luftwaffe destroyed an estimated 10,000 Soviet aircraft on the ground in a surprise attack on June 22nd makes all the 109 pilots cowards too?

Your lack of understanding of warfare is clear, as is your complete failure to comprehend the courage of any flyer.

Some post are so assnine that they aren't even worth responding to!

Crap I jsut did! Well then I might as well finish it then.

You really need to read your history books and stop playing Nintendo so much. The 8th Air Force was commanded to destroy the enemy where ever tehy found them. The Allied pilots destroyed them in the air and yes a large amount on the ground as well.

Ever wonder why so many were destroyed on the ground? Guess not well here you go...

The German Air Force was in a state commonly refered to as FUBAR. They had no supplies, no fuel, no spare parts, and most iportantly no trained pilots combat ready pilots.

Most of those planes on the ground would never have been able to take off any way. Those that did take off were overwelmed with superiour numbers and qucikly died. many a brave German pilot decided to sit in his bunker and wait for patton to liberate them than die for a lost cause.

A real shame that you would call your grandfathers and the grandfathers of your friends, neigbors, and fellow allied brethern cowards. Of course that the reason thousands have died to give you the right to do that.

Shame on you...........

Back on subject,just because I think enough comments have been made about the earlier illogical statement

Can someone post or refer to the production of German aircraft numbers,and their locations and any type of assembly regions or network of small factories?

I've looked throught the net,and in books but have not found any referance as of yet, to the specific locations especially while creating the late war fighters as they were assembled (FW190's for example) in many annex locations.

In relation to that a observation:
I wish I had my Air and Space magazine handy , one fighter aircraft restorer refered to American engines being designed(by his interpretation) to be repaired in the feild ,British aircraft were made to be handled by all types of specialist's(Socialism style system,something I assume what prevelant for the British workers during that time?) and German engine's were designed to be shipped back to the rear for men in white lab coats to work on.

This is of course his perspective,by working on them with his hands,he noted the German designs were very exact and tolerant levels were small,and highly engineered,and appeared modern by todays standards.

I wonder if production was rushed for aircraft going to the East,and maintainance was done more in the feild or engines shipped to a closer location like maybe Czechoslavakia for repair,making losses higher then normal,when they went back into the feild (less then perfect workmenship from far from ideal conditions and ideal factories and supply systems)..I guess that would be a unknown,that also could have attributed to higher losses at least in the area of engine/aircraft failure,not to make a excuse or belittle the Russian efforts in any way.

But a possible factor too,some things can add up along with a tough environment.

Too cowardly? Spoken like a true neophyte with absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Unlike you son, I HAVE been in the cockpit of a fighter. 600+ hours of it logged as combat.

I didn't go into a fight with the intent to fight "fair". "Fair" fights are for little boys playing tiddly-winks in the school yard. I went into battle to win. You are damn right I would have shot the sobs on the ground. In the air you are trained to kill the other guy...not fight fair.

Too many video games and Hollywood movies can ruin a perspective. Air combat is about assasination and cold blooded murder of your opponent. No reset button, no replay button.

Grow up some, actually put your ass on the line for something where your failure means your life and then you MIGHT have some clue as to just how enormously stupid you sound making statements like that.

You haven't earned the right to judge another man's bravery...

Excellent post!

So it looks like the VVS actually downed in the area of 14 to 15 thousand the entire war, not 44 thousand. While over Northern Europe the Americans and Brits downed about 8000 just during the first 5 months before D-Day, mostly with that crappy, over-rated
P-thingamajiggy

Sorry, just couldn't resist

Dang, dudes, take a chill pill.


If you disagree with my post or don't like it, forget it. No reason to make a scene.




------------------
"I DARE you to take your fricken' Yak or La5FN past 7,000m!"

Bf-109.. to fly where the Eagles Dare.

-Obltn Kretsler

Kretsler-

I understand you are 17 years old and will soon be joining the military.

As a veteran of the Armed Forces, I can tell you that your perspective will soon change radically. You may find yourself getting a little peeved when someone makes a uninformed/disrespectful post in public.

Remember you are talking about other peoples parents and grandparents here.

From what I've seen you're a smart kid.
Engage brain and then mouth- in that order.

PS My Grandpa was not a coward.

First of all, these are not stalinist propaganda - datum I provided are of German origin.
There was a quest PC game about dinosaurus, where one of the heroes said: "Think, and you will find". Quite applicable.
I simply didn't respond to numbers in this thread, as they made me LOL (about number of German planes downed on East Front). So here's the math:
106000 - 15000(East) - even say quite exagerrated 40000 (on all fronts except Russian) =
FIFTY ONE THOUSAND airplanes at German's disposal by the end of the war. Anyone saw that? ;-)

To remove pinky glasses, just look how many German fighters was shot down on June 22th 1941 - the day of complete surprize for VVS. And then realize that for whole entire BoB campain Germans lost more only once.
Please do not think that average German losses on Eastern front became substantially (30 times) less per day than on June 22th.

Now numbers someone requested in this thread:
Total AC production rate:

USSR US UK Germany Japan Italy
1939 10382 2141 7940 8295 4467 1692
1940 10565 6086 15049 10247 4768 3257
1941 15735 19433 20094 12414 5088 3503
1942 25436 47836 23672 15401 8861 2818
1943 34900 85898 26263 24807 16693 1930
1944 40241 96318 26461 40593 28180 -----
1945 20104 46001 12070 7539 11066
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total 157363 303713 131549 119296 79123 13200


Now Germany AC production data.


Make Model Military Military Primary use
production production
years under German
control

Arado
Ar 65 1935-? ? fighter
Ar 66 1933-43 10,000 primary trainer
Ar 68 1935-37 (480) fighter
Ar 76 1936 ? advanced trainer
Ar 95 1937-39 24 recce
* Ar 96 & Ar 396 1939-44 11,456 advanced trainer
* Ar 196 1939-44 401 recce
* Ar 234 1944-45 210 recce bomber
* Ar 232 1942-? 22 transport
* Ar 240 & Ar 440 1942-43 13 fighter

Bachem
* Ba 349 1945 36 interceptor

Blohm & Voss
* BV 138 1940-43 273 recce
* BV 141 1939-? 13 tactical recce
* BV 222 1940-? 13 transport

Buecker Bue 131 1934- several thousand primary trainer
Bue 133 1936- several hundred aerobatic trainer
* Bue 181 1940-45 6,608 trainer

DFS
* 230 1939-41 1,022 assault glider

Dornier
Do 11 1933-34 77 heavy bomber
Do 18 1938-39 ca.100 recce
Do 17 1936-39 ca.1000 medium bomber
* Do 17Z 1939-40 535 "
* Do 215 1940-41 101 "
Do 15 1933-35 30 recce
Do 22 1938-39 26 "
Do 23 1935-36 210 heavy bomber
* Do 24 1937-44 228 recce
* Do 217 1939-43 (1,700) bomber
* Do 335 1944-45 90 fighter

Fieseler
* Fi 167 1939 12 torpedo
* Fi 103 1944-45 175 manned missile
* Fi 156 1937-45 2,549 in WWII STOL multi-role
ca.2,700 total

Flettner * Fl 282 1942-? 20+ observation helicopter

Focke Achgelis
* Fa 223 1942-? ca.12 transport helicopter

Focke-Wulf FW 56 1936-40 ca.1,000 advanced trainer
* FW 58 1937-42 ca.4,500 transport
* FW 189 1940-44 856 tactical recce
* FW 190 1940-45 20,051 fighter / fighter bomber
* Ta 152 1944-45 67 fighter
* FW 200 1940-44 276 recce bomber

Gotha
Go 145 1935-43 9,965 primary trainer
* Go 242 & Go 244 1941-43 1,528 glider / transport

Heinkel
He 45 ?-1936 512 recce bomber
He 46 ?-1936 481 recce
He 50 pre-WWII 60 recce
He 51 1934-? 200+ fighter
He 59 1932-36 200+ multi-role
He 60 1934-? 200+ recce
He 70 1934-38 ca.280 recce bomber
He 72 1933-36 several thousand primary trainer
* He 100 1939 15 fighter
* He 111 1936-44 6,806+ medium bomber
He 112 1937-39 54 fighter
He 114 1936-? ? recce
* He 115 1937-44 400+ multi-role
* He 177 1941-44 1,126 heavy bomber
* He 219 1943-45 268 + 20 night fighter
* He 162 1945 300 interceptor

Henschel
Hs 123 1936-38 1,000+ close support
Hs 126 1937-41 802 army co-operation
* Hs 129 1941-? 841 (Hs 129B) ground attack

Junkers
* Ju 52/3m 1932-45 5,000+ transport (including civilian)
* Ju 86 1938-40 810-1,000 bomber
* Ju 87 1936-44 5,700+ dive bomber/ground attack
* Ju 88 A & S 1939-44 10,774 bomber C,R & G 1940-45 4,200+
day / night fighter W 34 ?-1934 1,800 transport (including
civilian)
* Ju 188 1942-45 1,100 bomber
* Ju 288 1942-43 22 medium bomber
* Ju 290 1942-44 ca.50 transport / recce bomber
* Ju352 1943-44 45 transport

Messerschmitt
* BF 108 1934-44 885 liaison
* BF 109 1937-45 (33,000 WWII) fighter / fighter bomber 37,000 1937-56
* BF 110 1939-45 6,050 day / night fighter
* Me 163 1944-45 370 interceptor
* Me 210 & Me 410 1941-44 1,474 tactical multi-role
* Me 262 1944-45 1,433 fighter / fighter bomber
* Me 321 & Me 323 1941-44 385 heavy glider / transport

Siebel
* Si 204 1941-45 1,175+ multi-role

Regards,
-MailPin